I think it's safe to say that the majority of us critics (of the official conspiracy theory) have become accustomed to the childish ridicule by now.
It's kind of late for it, though, because while people are waking up to the truth at an ever increasing rate, many of us have already engaged our investigative faculties and are thusly undeterred by any sort intimidation, let alone that kind of adolescent mockery.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by Trancer-X
It's kind of late for it, though, because while people are waking up to the truth at an ever increasing rate
for some strange reason though, none of those "waking up" happen to be civil engineers. why is that? ha.
Trancer-X
Questioning 9/11 and to Hell with Caution
By Michael Shaw
I owe Robert Fisk an apology. He began a thread on Truthdig.com called, "Questioning 9/11 with Caution" where he essentially (and cautiously) mentioned some of the "ravers" involved in the 9/11 for Truth movement. While in there, I came in direct contact with some of these ravers(to be polite) and began to question and research some of the data they were presenting. What I came up with were some pretty interesting morsels. Perhaps even boulders!
For example, some(not all) of the so called 9/11 conspiracy theorists have ties to Lyndon LaRouche, the same guy who said MI-6 was trying to assassinate him and that the Beatles were a creation of Britain’s Defense Ministry. He also said the Queen of England was the biggest dope peddler on the planet and that Britain, (not Hitler) was responsible for the second world war.
What really got me interested in the sources of some of these more radical "truth seekers," was another dig with Amy Goodman, where a raver was chastising her, literally calling her a cog in the Bush cover-up of 9/11 because she interviewed Ward Churchill, rather then the leader of the 9/11 for Truth movement, Dr. Steven E. Jones. This was when I discovered Webster Griffin Tarpley, an author and historian best known for his book, "George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography" and a member of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth (among other affiliations). He was also a key component to the Lyndon LaRouche political movement and in fact ran for the state senate in New York and lost.
"From 1991 to 1995, Tarpley worked with the political movement run by Lyndon LaRouche, and was a frequent host of “The LaRouche Connection” described as “a news and information cable television program produced by” LaRouche’s Executive Intelligence Review News Service."
The tactics of LaRouche (as seen back in the 1970's), using his so called "new left" to attack other leftist elements, (I mean even physically beating them up), is what really caught my attention on these current so called truth seekers, who were in essence using what I thought to be the Lyndon LaRouche playbook, pretending to be left while attacking the left. It's like taking the entire political philosophy of neo-liberal David Horowitz, molding his beginnings with Maoist Marxism to his current neo-conservatism into one big ugly ball of play dough and presto! We'll come back to Mr. Horowitz later.
Next we come to the prolific Christopher Bollyn, an author who in fact exposed a Reader's Digest article about illegal government surveillance which actually praised the notion, as coming from none other than the cousin of Michael Chertof, head of Homeland Security. Now this expose' was great and I thank Mr. Bollyn for it. However, the reason I refer to him as prolific (beyond his outward appearance as a hard working reporter/journalist) is in the revelation as to whom he has worked for. Among others the American Free Press which seems to have shared the same offices as, "The Barnes Review."
Just to give you some examples:
The American Free Press "The fact that Bollyn is extensively sourced in 9/11 skeptics’ literature, combined with the fact that his employer, the American Free Press, has extreme right associations, gives defenders of the official 9/11 myth effective ammunition with which to attack their critics. Although publications of the American Free Press are generally free of racist, white-supremicist, or anti-Semitic content, its sister publication, The Barnes Review overtly promotes such ideologies. Consider the following facts:
The Barnes Review praises Hitler as deserving of the Nobel Prize
The American Free Press and The Barnes Review share the same address
The American Free Press and The Barnes Review promote each other
Christopher Bollyn has been a guest on David Duke’s show a number of times
The American Free Press was founded by Right Wing ideologue Willis Carto." "Carto (born July 17, 1926 in Indiana) is a longtime figure on the far right wing of American politics. He describes himself as Jeffersonian and populist, although the Anti-Defamation League and other critics say he promotes thinly-disguised antisemitism. Carto was also the founder of a publishing company called Noontide Press, which published a number of books on white racialism, including Yockey’s Imperium and David Hoggan’s The Myth of the Six Million, one of the first books to deny the Holocaust."
Also, The Barnes Review in their last convention had guest speakers like Theo Junker, former member of the Wiking SS, a guy who built a memorial on his Wisconsin farm honoring Adolf Hitler (see: Time Magazine).
Other guest speakers at the event included political writer Michael Collins Piper, a Holocaust denier and a guy who blames MOSSAD for the JFK assassination, also claims the Israeli’s are working on an ethnic bomb that will kill only Arabs. He’s a devout friend of Willis Carto and Christopher Bollyn filled in for him from time to time on his radio talk show, The Piper Report on The Republic Broadcasting Network, which is owned and operated by John Stadmiller.
John Stadmiller also has his own radio show. It’s called The National Intel Report. The RBN(Republic Broadcasting Network) covers everything from UFO’s to demonic mind control. Their sponsors include The Knob Creek Gun Range and The Nationalist Times, which comes from The American Nationalists Union, a white supremacist organization.
Next we have Dr. Harrell Rhome of Eagle Publications, a devout right wing Christian Fundamentalist and a regular contributer to the Barnes Review. He also shares the spotlight with pro-Aparteid professor, Dr.Claus Nordbruch of South Africa.
Then there's Dave Von Kleist, producer of In Plane site which has already been proved a hoax.
Now most of these folks and several others I haven't got the time to mention, all blame Israel for the attacks of 9/11 (and everything else). They also attack several independent journalists like Goodman and John Foster(Chip) Berlet, Fisk and others, actually calling them co conspirators in the so called Bush/AIPAC coverup.
I owe an apology, not only to Robert Fisk, but to everyone out there who is genuinely seeking the truth concerning 9/11. These include the many real and dedicated individuals and groups who surround it, like the 9/11 widows who pushed so hard to get Bush to present an investigation and people like the great historian Howard Zinn and Col. Karen Kwiatkowski (ret.) who showed us how Cheney doctored intelligence to war on Iraq. My hat goes off to them and those like them. What I'm presenting here has absolutely nothing to do with the fine work they do. But it is definitely something we all need to be aware of, that right wing extremists are playing a role within the role of the 9/11 for truth movement and it is very doubtful their intent is in seeking the truth about anything.
As for David Horowitz, here's a guy who is promoting a rash of anti-radical Islamic events on several US College campuses and in his last outing and along with his perpetual sidekick, Ann Coulter; had invited a guest speaker who turned out to be one of Britain's biggest holocaust deniers. Isn't that a kick in the shorts!?! Frankly I see him(and Coulter) in the same light as I see LaRouche, Bollyn, Piper and Carto.
Authors Bio: I'm a concerned, middle aged blogger and member of the ACLU. I hail from the Bay Area. I Lobbied congress with the ACLU over the more unconstitutional elements of the USA Patriot Act. Marched in peace protests, lost a former school chum in the world trade center on 9/11.
“But the craziest, most truly unhinged conspiracy theory for the towers falling on 9/11?” Torin asks rhetorically. “Fire.” The official story cannot be recreated by any experiment. NIST is the government agency involved in attempting to model what happened to the world trade center on 9/11, and they fail horribly. NIST never models what happens after the collapse initiation, and even what they do model before that is easily debunked. NIST created 16 separate physics programs to simulate the WTC 1 & 2 collapses and only got 1 to collapse partially. Torin adds, “When they did, [in the computer model] they removed 40% of the structural support.” The cross trusses that the towers received a significant amount of their strength from had to be removed to have a collapse in the computer simulation. Torin then mocks the official story, “There’s no such thing as a ‘pancake’ collapse, but there is a progressive collapse.” A few slides are shown of progressive collapses throughout the world. None of them are anything like what happened to the world trade center with its pulverized concrete 100 microns or smaller just seconds after the start of collapse, and then its complete destruction. Torin uses his expertise to explain to the audience how and why a real progressive collapse occurs and subsequently why the WTC was not a progressive collapse. “The biggest problem with the argument,” Torin explains. “Time.”
Several slides are then presented that show the hard physics and observed time of WTC 2 falling. Worst-case scenario would require 0.5 seconds per floor for collapse. “The absolute minimum amount of time for a progressive collapse would be 43 seconds.” How long did it take for the building to fall in reality? About 8.6 Seconds.
“For the towers to fall at so close to free fall speed, over 110,000 separate and independent structural support points had to fail simultaneously. ‘Pancake theory’ does NOT explain the failure of the cores.” Torin explains passionately, obviously upset with the lies being told to the American people. “Nothing is holding the building up - No resistance. 110,000 structural failures at the same time.”
Come on Trancer-X we all know fires, jet fuel and the pancake theory explains the collapses.
;)
culorut
Is This 20-Year CIA Vet Crazy For Saying 9/11 Is a Probable Inside Job?
Debunkers not so quick to attack hugely respected intelligence & foreign policy expert Robert Baer
Debunkers can scoff and chuckle all day long when a celebrity uses their public prominence to talk about 9/11 truth, but when a 20-year decorated CIA veteran says that the evidence points to 9/11 being an inside job, dismissive hand waving and off-the-cuff ad hominem attacks on credibility aren't so easy to justify.
Bill Maher recently suggested that people who dare to question this habitually lying government's official version of what happened on September 11 are crazy and should ask their doctor if Paxil is right for them.
Perhaps Maher would be less reticent to question the sanity of a man labeled "perhaps the best on-the-ground field officer in the Middle East” by Seymour Hersh and whose astounding career formed the script for the Academy Award winning motion picture Syriana.
Robert Baer is no "radical left loony" as Bill O'Reilly would allege and neither does he lean to the right. He is a widely respected expert on intelligence matters and middle eastern foreign policy, an Emmy award nominated documentarian and a strong advocate of the CIA's need to increase Human Intelligence (HUMINT) on the ground.
Baer served as a clandestine officer in Madras and New Delhi, India; in Beirut, Lebanon; in Dushanbe, Tajikistan; and in Salah al-Din in Kurdish northern Iraq. While in Iraq, Baer tried to persuade the Clinton administration to back a coup to overthrow Saddam Hussein.
So when Baer told a radio host that "the evidence points at" 9/11 having had aspects of being an inside job, the noisy negativists and the trolls were notable by their absence.
So where are the debunkers on this one? What does Bill Maher have to say about it? One of the foremost intelligence and foreign policy experts in America and a 20-year CIA veteran to boot says that 9/11 looks like an inside job.
Let's hear Bill O'Reilly try and trash this hugely regarded individual as another tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist.
Let's hear Glenn Beck attempt to slander Baer as the next Timothy McVeigh terrorist bomber.
Let's hear Sean Hannity ridicule this honorable professional and CIA Career Intelligence Medal decorated stalwart as a caricature of liberal political hate speech.
They couldn't, and that's precisely why the debunkers, the COINTELPRO counter-operatives, the Neo-Con talking heads and the trolls are loathe to address Baer's expert judgment on 9/11 being a likely inside job.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut Is This 20-Year CIA Vet Crazy For Saying 9/11 Is a Probable Inside Job?
could you link a copy of the full transcript of the interview please?
culorut
look it up yourself.
culorut
Robert Baer is a few seconds into this clip.
*cough*
pkcRAISTLIN
well, when he provides some evidence then perhaps he will be something more than an ex CIA employee with novels to sell. for instance, his books promote the idea that iran was behind 9/11, and everything he says suggests he believes iran was involved.
the statements he made (and thanks for the link, but i did find an orginal too) reflect a complicity, not an orchestration. he is questioning whether the administration allowed it to happen, not engineered the attacks.
ive always ignored the complicity argument because its uninteresting to me. but baer has said nothing about pre-planted explosives in the towers, which is the argument that i do take issue with.
culorut
quote:
the statements he made (and thanks for the link, but i did find an orginal too) reflect a complicity, not an orchestration. he is questioning whether the administration allowed it to happen, not engineered the attacks.
There is no difference.
They killed thousands of their own innocent people either way.
It's never been about about if they did it themselves or just had a hand in it, when it boils down they should be persecuted like the rest. They are in their position in the first place to stop these massacres.
Robert Baer the ex CIA agent has a hell of a lot more credentials (20 years) to speak on the matter then someone with some childish avatar of a video game character.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
There is no difference.
i agree, but there is from a specifics point of view. i have only ever contended there werent bombs in the towers. SO much of the conspiracy stuff revolves around that, which is what i debate.
quote:
It's never been about about if they did it themselves or just had a hand in it, when it boils down they should be persecuted like the rest. They are in their position in the first place to stop these massacres.
very true, but nobody is arguing that perpetrators shouldnt be persecuted. we merely disagree on who is responsible.
quote:
Robert Baer the ex CIA agent has a hell of a lot more credentials (20 years) to speak on the matter then someone with some childish avatar of a video game character.
he isnt a video game character, but thanks for trying. yes, he does have more credentials to talk on the matter, yet with all those credentials and experience he hasn't unearthed any actual evidence. im still waiting for him to do so.
