Originally posted by jerZ07002
why is it you don't answer questions, rather, you address only points you want? that's not how a discussion works.
And that's when pkc's post about conspiracy theorists becomes useful :p
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Cheney was in command and the criminal did not order the plane to be shot down. It was the first time in history that this power was granted to the VP and coincidentally it passed just before 9/11 happened.
Norman Mineta testimony on Cheney stand down/shoot down censored
cough. just another coincidence. cough.
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
More like where is Flight 77?, I never said a missile hit the Pentagon. If the plane crashed there where the fuk is it?
notice these two arguments everyone.
cretinrot is simultaneously arguing that vice president cheney deliberately avoided shooting down flight 77 so that it crashed into the pentagon at the same time as insinuating that no plane hit the pentagon.
i mean, how can anyone expect to take these people seriously? :stongue: :stongue:
jerZ07002
quote:
Originally posted by Lira
And that's when pkc's post about conspiracy theorists becomes useful :p
i was actually thinking about pkc's posts when i wrote that. it wouldn't be the same if i did it. ;)
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by jerZ07002
i was actually thinking about pkc's posts when i wrote that. it wouldn't be the same if i did it. ;)
repost by popular demand :D
10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes
3. Inability to answer questions. For people who loudly advertise their determination to the principle of questioning everything, they're pretty poor at answering direct questions from sceptics about the claims that they make.
Originally posted by culorut
Where the serial numbers matched? Those parts could be from anywhere really.
Ok, so instead of answering questions with more questions could you clarify for me what you are suggesting actually happened at the Pentagon?
To make it easy for you I've listed your options below, pick one:
1. A missile hit it (lol) and someone ran out real quick and scattered metal scraps matching the engine parts of Flight 77 (now where did I put my tinfoil hat again?)
2. Flight 77 hit it
3. A Boeing 757 other than Flight 77 hit it (what plane hit it and where is Flight 77, its hijackers, and all its passengers? What about the cell phone calls from people on Flight 77 saying it was hijacked? What about the eye witnesses that saw a large American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon?)
Did I miss an option here? Please fill me in.
culorut
Cheney was in charge, end of story. He ordered the stand down as stated in the testimony. What he refuted not to shoot down is a mystery until they can prove with real evidence that it was Flight 77.
They provided pictures of random plane parts on the lawn and there is nothing in the video released that even resembles Flight 77.
None of the planes where ever matched to their serial numbers, how come none of you can produce something on this subject?
Wait I already know, you like believing what Fox, CNN and the government of power tells you without questioning it.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Cheney was in charge, end of story. He ordered the stand down as stated in the testimony. What he refuted not to shoot down is a mystery until they can prove with real evidence that it was Flight 77.
They provided pictures of random plane parts on the lawn and there is nothing in the video released that even resembles Flight 77.
None of the planes where ever matched to their serial numbers, how come none of you can produce something on this subject?
Wait I already know, you like believing what Fox, CNN and the government of power tells you without questioning it.
10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes
5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.
culorut
PKC you forgot to post facts, like where is Flight 77, matching serial numbers, etc.
Norman Mineta testified that Cheney did not order to shoot down what ever crashed into the Pentagon.
There are no matching records produced to this day, these are facts. Get it?
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
like where is Flight 77
ive been asking you guys that question for 4 years now. 4 years for you "no planers", and i have yet to see anything even resembling an answer.
XaNaX
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Cheney was in charge, end of story. He ordered the stand down as stated in the testimony. What he refuted not to shoot down is a mystery until they can prove with real evidence that it was Flight 77.
They provided pictures of random plane parts on the lawn and there is nothing in the video released that even resembles Flight 77.
None of the planes where ever matched to their serial numbers, how come none of you can produce something on this subject?
Wait I already know, you like believing what Fox, CNN and the government of power tells you without questioning it.
So again you cannot just answer a simple question.
In typical truther fashion you love to post that Mineta quote about Cheney completely out of context. Here is the quote in context:
quote:
Former Congressman Lee Hamilton: I wanted to focus just a moment on the presidential emergency operating center. You were there for a good part of the day. I think you were there with the vice president. We had that order given, I think it was by the President, that authorized the shooting down of commercial aircraft that were suspected to be controlled by terrorists. Were you there when that order was given?
Mineta: No I was not. I was made aware of it during the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon. There was a young man who'd come in and say to the vice president, the plane is 50 miles out, the plane is 30 miles out and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out the young man also said to the vice president, "Do the orders still stand?" And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said "Of course the orders still stand. Have you heard anything to the contrary?
As you can clearly see when it is posted IN CONTEXT, Cheney was only confirming that the order to shoot DOWN hijacked aircraft still stood. Cheney was not in charge of , he wasn't issuing any stand down orders, he was only confirming for this staff person that Bush had authorized the shootdowns. Unfortunately the Air Force was never in a position to be able to shoot down any of the aircraft.
So without your precious Mineta misquote to "prove" that Cheney ordered a stand down I ask again, please tell me what you believe happened at the Pentagon:
1. A missile hit it (lol) and someone ran out real quick and scattered metal scraps matching the engine parts of Flight 77 (now where did I put my tinfoil hat again?)
2. Flight 77 hit it
3. A Boeing 757 other than Flight 77 hit it (what plane hit it and where is Flight 77, its hijackers, and all its passengers? What about the cell phone calls from people on Flight 77 saying it was hijacked? What about the eye witnesses that saw a large American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon?)
culorut
quote:
1. A missile hit it (lol) and someone ran out real quick and scattered metal scraps matching the engine parts of Flight 77 (now where did I put my tinfoil hat again?)
What matching parts? Prove it. I already posted that none of the planes where ever matched on 9/11.
quote:
2. Flight 77 hit it
Not likely, but I am more concerned about backing this up with evidence if that is what you say. Again random plane parts on a lawn does not prove jack . It is very easy to plant parts considering they closed off the area rather quickly, maybe it was not even Flight 77's parts on lawn.
quote:
3. A Boeing 757 other than Flight 77 hit it (what plane hit it and where is Flight 77, its hijackers, and all its passengers? What about the cell phone calls from people on Flight 77 saying it was hijacked? What about the eye witnesses that saw a large American Airlines jet hit the Pentagon?)
Where is the eyewitness? People saw a plane? I see planes all the time in the sky, does not prove it was Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon. Hell the video released does not even show Flight 77 hitting the Pentagon.
Maybe you should ask them to release the other videos, there should be at least 5-6 more considering this is the Pentagon we are talking about.
The most heavily guarded and secured building in the world.
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Where is the eyewitness? People saw a plane?
hundreds of people.
Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.
Anlauf was watching TV coverage of the Trade Center burning shortly before 9:30 a.m. when she decided to return to her 14th-floor room from another part of the hotel. Once in her room, she heard a "loud roar" and looked out the window to see what was going on. "Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window," Anlauf said during a telephone interview from her hotel room this morning. "You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook."
"I saw the plane that hit the Pentagon. It went behind some trees."
"It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."
“I was in a massive traffic jam, hadn’t moved more than a hundred yards in twenty minutes. My office called to tell me about the first plane in New York, the reaction was ‘horrible accident.’ And then they called about the second plane, and clearly that meant something much worse was going on. It was only then that I really noticed where I was in that traffic jam. I was going past the Pentagon, really inching a yard or so every couple of minutes. I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395 . . . when all of a sudden I heard the roar of a jet engine. I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn’t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment.
"Then the plane flew right over my head. I said to myself, boy, that plane is going awfully fast. That plane is going to crash .... The noise was like an artillery shell, not an explosion like a bomb"
"I heard an airplane. A very loud airplane. ... I heard the airplane coming from behind me. ... So I looked up, and I saw this airplane coming, heading straight down toward the ground. It was an American Airlines airplane, I could see it very clearly. ... The plane went down and for a split second it was out of my line of vision because there was a bridge there and a hill. ... I didn't actually see the impact... I didn't see any flaps, it looked like the plane was just in a normal flying mode but heading straight down, sharply down. It was straight. No flopping. It was going pretty straight. ... The only thing we saw on the ground outside there was a piece of a - the tail of a lamp post."
"I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building. It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building."
"At 9:40 a.m. I was driving down Washington Boulevard (Route 27) along the side of the Pentagon when the aircraft crossed about 200 yards in front of me and impacted the side of the building. There was an enormous fireball, followed about two seconds later by debris raining down. The car moved about a foot to the right when the shock wave hit. I had what must have been an emergency oxygen bottle from the airplane go flying down across the front of my Explorer and then a second piece of jagged metal come down on the right side of the car."
10 characteristics of conspiracy theorists
A useful guide by Donna Ferentes
5. Inability to employ or understand Occam's Razor. Aided by the principle in 4. above, conspiracy theorists never notice that the small inconsistencies in the accounts which they reject are dwarfed by the enormous, gaping holes in logic, likelihood and evidence in any alternative account.
6. Inability to tell good evidence from bad. Conspiracy theorists have no place for peer-review, for scientific knowledge, for the respectability of sources. The fact that a claim has been made by anybody, anywhere, is enough for them to reproduce it and demand that the questions it raises be answered, as if intellectual enquiry were a matter of responding to every rumour. While they do this, of course, they will claim to have "open minds" and abuse the sceptics for apparently lacking same.
8. Leaping to conclusions. Conspiracy theorists are very keen indeed to declare the "official" account totally discredited without having remotely enough cause so to do. Of course this enables them to wheel on the Conan Doyle quote as in 4. above. Small inconsistencies in the account of an event, small unanswered questions, small problems in timing of differences in procedure from previous events of the same kind are all more than adequate to declare the "official" account clearly and definitively discredited. It goes without saying that it is not necessary to prove that these inconsistencies are either relevant, or that they even definitely exist.
10. It's always a conspiracy. And it is, isn't it? No sooner has the body been discovered, the bomb gone off, than the same people are producing the same old stuff, demanding that there are questions which need to be answered, at the same unbearable length. Because the most important thing about these people is that they are people entirely lacking in discrimination. They cannot tell a good theory from a bad one, they cannot tell good evidence from bad evidence and they cannot tell a good source from a bad one. And for that reason, they always come up with the same answer when they ask the same question.
quote:
Originally posted by culorut
Maybe you should ask them to release the other videos, there should be at least 5-6 more considering this is the Pentagon we are talking about. The most heavily guarded and secured building in the world.
evidence? you have no proof at all that there are any other videos, so stop saying it like you have. why on earth would they have a video pointed at the sky to film incoming planes? :rolleyes: juvenile assumptions without any supporting evidence. good work.
honestly, the no-plane theory is one of the dumbest conspiracy theories the world has ever seen.
