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Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11? (pg. 23)
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| seval |
| tiesto14 are you serious about the alien comment you made, haha thats quality i know im a bit irish but bloody hell aliens lol dats awesome:haha: |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
but at the end of the day its what you personaly believe and trying to force somebody to believe what you/I believe is wrong, |
I disagree...at the end of the day there are facts...and the facts. by experts and common sense, proves no conspiracy.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
i just think that if you were to look at the situation from outside the box what happened is quite plausable and people like goerge bush are very motivated by money and would sell their soul to have as much money as possible, and there is no doubt that oil is money just look at the profits brittish oil company BP made last year alone £13 billion |
Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Puff Daddy are more fueled by money than George Bush does that implicate them as well?
You bring up oil...implying that they prchestrated 9.11 to invade countries like Iraq for oil...so i go back to my main point...if that were true why not make a plan that linked to Hussein to 9.11 and not Osama or better yet plant a WMD in Iraw and shout "told you so"? |
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| ogvh5150 |
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
| quote: | | When you try to reason with a troll, he wins. When you insult a troll, he wins. When you scream at a troll, he wins. The only thing that trolls can't handle is being ignored. |
There is an ignore feature for this forum. Click on the persons profile then click on "Add XXXXX to Your Ignore List" |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
tiesto14 are you serious about the alien comment you made, haha thats quality i know im a bit irish but bloody hell aliens lol dats awesome:haha: |
I kid you not
http://www.realufos.com/wtc.shtml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...05/ixworld.html
or go read about David Icke who claims, based on his exploration of genealogical connections to European royalty, that many presidents of the United States have been reptilian humanoids. In his view reptilian humanoids were behind 9.11. Google him and see how sick people really are. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL
There is an ignore feature for this forum. Click on the persons profile then click on "Add XXXXX to Your Ignore List" |
Classic theorists...i post credibal links and disprove his little theory and he calls me a troll....theorists can never have a real debate and when they lose the resort to these actions....i accept your surrender. |
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| seval |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
I disagree...at the end of the day there are facts...and the facts. by experts and common sense, proves no conspiracy.
Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Puff Daddy are more fueled by money than George Bush does that implicate them as well?
You bring up oil...implying that they prchestrated 9.11 to invade countries like Iraq for oil...so i go back to my main point...if that were true why not make a plan that linked to Hussein to 9.11 and not Osama or better yet plant a WMD in Iraw and shout "told you so"? |
Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Puff Daddy what superpower do they rule? oh thats rite none, i dont know if you have forgotton but tony blair admited that him and bush lied about iraq and wepons of mass destruction so they did have a plan, lets not forget here were not talkin about robing a bank were talking about going into a country overthrowing their government and steling their natural resources, its not excatley something that can be done outright if they did then they would be stoped from doing so, but if you say that your doing it to save the world rid the world of terrosits then you have something to work with, international politics isnt childs play it isnt black and white and to think othrewise is a sign of being naive, and incase youve forgotton about china and the slightly scary rate of their economic growth is putting alot of pressure on the americian and european economy's more so the americian as pretty soon china will be the strongest economy on the plannet, this may not sound too bad but to the americian and europeians this means a loss of hundreds of billions of pounds/dollars/euros, and the only way to stop the chinese growth is too take away their oil, gas pipelines and any other natural resource they can |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and Puff Daddy what superpower do they rule? oh thats rite none, |
all you said was Bush was money hungry so i posted them because they are also..u did not say anything about power.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
i dont know if you have forgotton but tony blair admited that him and bush lied about iraq and wepons of mass destruction , |
no i dont remember...link please. |
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| tiesto14 |
I won't argue that the U.S. government does not engage in brutal, murderous skulduggery from time to time. But the notion that the U.S. government either detected the attacks but allowed them to occur, or, worse, conspired to kill thousands of Americans to launch a war-for-oil is absurd. This crap is probably not worth a rational rebuttal, but I'm irritated enough to try.
So let's start with a broad question: would U.S. officials be capable of such a foul deed? Capable -- as in able to pull it off and willing to do so. Simply put, the spies and special agents are not good enough, evil enough, or gutsy enough to mount this operation. That conclusion is based partly on, dare I say it, common sense, but also on years spent covering national security matters.
Not good enough: Such a plot -- to execute the simultaneous destruction of the two towers, a piece of the Pentagon, and four airplanes and make it appear as if it all was done by another party -- is far beyond the skill level of U.S. intelligence. It would require dozens (or scores or hundreds) of individuals to attempt such a scheme. They would have to work together, and trust one another not to blow their part or reveal the conspiracy. They would hail from an assortment of agencies (CIA, FBI, INS, Customs, State, FAA, NTSB, DOD, etc.).
Yet anyone with the most basic understanding of how government functions (or does not function) realizes that the various bureaucracies of Washington -- particularly those of the national security "community" -- do not work well together. Even covering up advance knowledge would require an extensive plot. If there truly had been intelligence reports predicting the 9/11 attacks, these reports would have circulated through intelligence and policymaking circles before the folks at the top decided to smother them for geopolitical gain. That would make for a unwieldy conspiracy of silence. And in either scenario -- planning the attacks or permitting them to occur -- everyone who participated in the conspiracy would have to be freakin' sure that all the other plotters would stay quiet.
Not evil enough. This is as foul as it gets -- to kill thousands of Americans, including Pentagon employees, to help out oil companies. (The sacrificial lambs could have included White House staff or members of Congress, had the fourth plane not crashed in Pennsylvania.) This is a Hollywood-level of dastardliness, James Bond (or Dr. Evil) material.
Are there enough people of such a bent in all those agencies? That's doubtful. CIA officers and American officials have been evildoers. They have supported death squads and made use of drug dealers overseas. They have assisted torturers, disseminated assassination manuals, sold weapons to terrorist-friendly governments, undermined democratically-elected governments, and aided dictators who murder and maim. They have covered up reports of massacres and human rights abuses. They have plotted to kill foreign leaders.
These were horrendous activities, but, in most instances, the perps justified these deeds with Cold War imperatives (perverted as they were). And to make the justification easier, the victims were people overseas. Justifying the murder of thousands of Americans to help ExxonMobil would require U.S. officials to engage in a different kind of detachment and an even more profound break with decency and moral norms.
Not gutsy enough. Think of the danger -- the potential danger to the plotters. What if their plan were uncovered before or, worse, after the fact? Who's going to risk being associated with the most infamous crime in U.S. history? At the start of such a conspiracy, no one could be certain it would work and remain a secret. CIA people -- and those in other government agencies -- do care about their careers.
Would George W. Bush take the chance of being branded the most evil president of all time by countenancing such wrongdoing? Oil may be in his blood, but would he place the oil industry's interests ahead of his own? (He sure said sayonara to Kenneth Lay and Enron pretty darn fast.) And Bush and everyone else in government know that plans leak. Disinformation specialists at the Pentagon could not keep their office off the front page of The New York Times. In the aftermath of September 11, there has been much handwringing over the supposed fact that U.S. intelligence has been too risk-averse. But, thankfully, some inhibitions -- P.R. concerns, career concerns -- do provide brakes on the spy-crowd.
David Corn - Washington editor of The Nation. |
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| tiesto14 |
That does not show they admitted they lied like you said...it shows their intel was wrong...big difference.
And i am here to discuss 9.11 plots..lets not get off topic...thats another thing theorists do in the face of defeat. |
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| seval |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
That does not show they admitted they lied like you said...it shows their intel was wrong...big difference.
And i am here to discuss 9.11 plots..lets not get off topic...thats another thing theorists do in the face of defeat. |
ok here we go i didnt want to bring this up, how much do you know about nazi germany and the weimar republic? being americian probably not much apart fom they killed jews, hitler got the support of his country telling them the rest of the world is evil and arian raceof germany is the best, not too disimilar from from bush saying the middle east is evil and americia is the greates nation on earth, hitler also invaded other countrys in his quest to gain steel, gas and coal to rebuild his army and economy, the only difference is bush is doing it to save his economy, third hitler killed millions of jews, gays, and anybody who didnt agree with them, the difference with bush is that he has the un partially on his side.
now im not calling the americian people nazias, but i am calling bush an evil man capable of more than he lets on, do you honestly believe that a man portrayed as being so stupid would be allowed to run a race let alone a country america has been brainwashed, and to say i am theroist is incorrect as i have backed up my claims from ligitamate sources, i am also very well educated in morern politicts an dmodern history so dont try to pull the wool over my eyes you quite clearly dont have any knowelede of the world apart form your own country and have proven to be incabable of putting up a decent argument as you dont know all the facts, i was very shocked that you dont know about bush and blair admitting they were wrong about wepons of mass destruction, one thing i should point out is politics is about infering(reading between the line for you) so when they say a 20 billion£/$ intellogence programe coldent prove the wepons of mass destruction it means they knew and threfore lied about it. you are an incompetent fool living in a bubble and seemingly uneducated in current events
so before you have a go at me calling me a conspirist or a theroist i think you should research up to date statements, government documents and not relying on out of date media clipings.
i supose you didnt know that the bbc proved 9 of the suicide bombers to be alive and well today, thats a little strange dont you think, suicide bombers in a 500mph+ plance crash still being alive |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
ok here we go i didnt want to bring this up, how much do you know about nazi germany and the weimar republic? being americian probably not much apart fom they killed jews, hitler got the support of his country telling them the rest of the world is evil and arian raceof germany is the best, not too disimilar from from bush saying the middle east is evil and americia is the greates nation on earth, hitler also invaded other countrys in his quest to gain steel, gas and coal to rebuild his army and economy, the only difference is bush is doing it to save his economy, third hitler killed millions of jews, gays, and anybody who didnt agree with them, the difference with bush is that he has the un partially on his side. |
You are now comparing the Bush administration to Nazi Germany...whether you like it or not that is what you have done. And i will not entertain that.
| quote: | | Originally posted by seval as i have backed up my claims from ligitamate sources, i am also very well educated in morern politicts an dmodern history so dont try to pull the wool over my eyes you quite clearly dont have any knowelede of the world apart form your own country and have proven to be incabable of putting up a decent argument as you dont know all the facts, i was very shocked that you dont know about bush and blair admitting they were wrong about wepons of mass destruction, one thing i should point out is politics is about infering(reading between the line for you) so when they say a 20 billion£/$ intellogence programe coldent prove the wepons of mass destruction it means they knew and threfore lied about it. you are an incompetent fool living in a bubble and seemingly uneducated in current events |
Thank you...but you backed nothing up...your claim was that Bush and Blair downright admitted they "LIED"...and you did not back that up.
Blair saying they made a mistake is not saying he lied.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
so before you have a go at me calling me a conspirist or a theroist i think you should research up to date statements, government documents and not relying on out of date media clipings.
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You are a conspiracy theorists...you are entertaining the notion that Bush and his pals carried out 9.11. That is a conspiracy.
You want to get into it?
Conspiracy people are a different tribe. You think & perceive differently from the rest of us. You SEE signs of the takeover everywhere. To you, it’s incredibly obvious. People who deny it have to be dumb, brainwashed, compartmentalized...or agents for the bad guys.
Conspiracy people don’t want to talk about WHETHER a takeover is going on. They want to get together & talk about it. You want to elaborate their fantasy.
Conspiracy nuts tend to be different from normal people because:
- they think they can predict the future
- they think they have access to “secret information”
- they think they’re cleverer than anyone else in the world (because they see the takeover everyone is missing)
- they see brainwashing in everything
- they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being ignorant or blinded
- they never consult experts (& are in fact suspicious of real experts), but instead figure it all out themselves, being, as they are, geniuses
- they tend to see the government as the font of all evil & to blame the government for absolutely everything
- they believe weird things about the Federal Reserve & monetary policy
- they believe weird things about the United Nations
- they cannot perceive the logical inconsistencies in their scenario
So now lets get into the HOAX that Bush carried out on the world by secfretly concocting 9.11 and bring down 2 towers in NYC and the part of the Pentago...shall we?
Now try to focus.
You & the other 9/11 conspiracists are telling a silly, absurd story. You’re postulating that the conspirators planned this incredible caper...but they FORGOT to put out debris around the Pentagon.
Are you serious?
You’re saying that--after all this planning--they just up & FORGOT how to cover their tracks. They forgot to plant the bodies (silly guys!). O...& then they spread debris around while the site was being photographed, those reckless rascals.
Duh. Were they trying to leave clues for conspiracy buffs?
& yet these scatterbrained schemers have fooled everyone in the world but you with their elaborate caper. It boggles the mind.
Your government perps are imaginary. There was no inside job. 9/11 was brought to us by real terrorists, who probably never heard any of your crazy theories about what they did.
This pervasive emotional distemper is almost universal amongst conspiracy guys, & the political right in general. They harbor nearly megalomaniacal delusions, i.e., they honest-to-God think they’re the smartest guys in the world. They think they can read people’s minds & see behind the illusion.
It’s often as not an angry white guy who perceives the scam in a bunch of blurry tapes & photographs. Rumors & amateur science also help, though the real experts never seem to sign on.
Conspiracy guys can’t seem to see that the perpetrators of a hoax would want their cover story to appear real & believable. Conspirators don’t want impossible or fantastic things happening. They would take measures to attract as little attention as possible to the hoax.
So every time one of you conspiracist starts rattling off weird anomalies––inept pilots flying like aces; a symmetrical demolition performed right in front of everybody; having passports appear out of nowhere––you are actually proving it was not a conspiracy.
What conspirators would forget to put bodies & wreckage around the Pentagon, then try to do it while rescue workers & photographers milled around? What conspirators would allow supposed hijackers to be found alive? Why would they say the hijackers used pocket knives, when they could just as well supplied them with Uzis?
Anomalies are exactly what conspirators would avoid, especially if they’ve been able to fool everyone in the world except sharpies like seval and the rest of twits on here. There might be flaws in the story. But there would not be the egregious anomalies the conspiracy guys talk about.
Conspiracy guys don’t seem able to understand this point. But I thought some of the other members of the forum might get the point.
Like all conspiracists, you are a fantasist, in love with your fantasy.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
i supose you didnt know that the bbc proved 9 of the suicide bombers to be alive and well today, thats a little strange dont you think, suicide bombers in a 500mph+ plance crash still being alive |
This has never struck us as an idea that made much sense, especially if you believe the US Government were behind 9/11. If you were constructing a fake terrorist attack because you wanted to attack Afghanistan, or Iraq, then wouldn’t you involve a few Afghans or Iraqis? But no, we’re supposed to believe that they made them inconvenient Saudis, instead.
Worse still, the planners picked live Saudis almost at random, despite the fact that they’d be sure to come forward and spoil the whole thing. Why would anyone do that?
What’s more, all these stories occurred very soon after 9/11. Once the FBI released their official list of hijackers, complete with photographs (on the 27th September), these stories disappeared. This suggests to us they were only ever a mixup over names, and once the photos appeared as well these individuals realised they weren’t wanted men after all.
And in fact if you look at the details, you’ll find this seems the most likely explanation. Read more in analyses of the most common “still alive” stories: Abdulaziz Al Omari, Ahmed Al-Nami, Khalid Al Mihdhar, Mohammed Atta, Said al-Ghamdi, Salem Al-Hamzi, Wail Al-Shehri and Waleed Al-Shehri.
Name confusion persists elsewhere, too, in the suggestion that some of the hijackers trained at Pensacola Air Force Base. Some people report this as absolute fact, but like so much of the 9/11 conspiracy story, it ain’t necessarily so.
One factor complicating the investigation is that the hijackers' Arabic names are remarkably common. For example, when investigators went to the Naval Air Base in Pensacola, the address listed on a Florida driver's license issued to a Saeed Alghamdi in 1997, they learned that several people by that name had attended flight school there over the past 10 years.
"What we have here is a situation of people with identical names", said Harry White, public affairs officer at the base. He said the school has had more than 1,600 people with the first name Saeed, spelled various ways, and more than 200 with the surname Alghamdi.
White maintains, however, that none of the Saeed Alghamdi students was involved with terrorist activity. "We have found no direct connection between any of the foreign students trained at NAS Pensacola and any of the terrorist suspects,? he said.
http://www.humanunderground.com/11s...-hijackers.html
More than 200 Saeed Alghamdis? This shows how unsurprising the “hijackers still alive” stories are. And how none of them yet provide proof that the person they’re referring to matches the claimed hijacker.
Another development makes this even less likely. Because if some of the named Saudis are still alive and innocent, then why has Saudi Arabia now accepted that they were involved?
Saudi Arabia acknowledged for the first time that 15 of the Sept. 11 suicide hijackers were Saudi citizens...
Previously, Saudi Arabia had said the citizenship of 15 of the 19 hijackers was in doubt despite U.S. insistence they were Saudis. But Interior Minister Prince Nayef told The Associated Press that Saudi leaders were shocked to learn 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
"The names that we got confirmed that," Nayef said in an interview. "Their families have been notified."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm
And subsequently a video called “the 19 Martyrs” was released and partly aired on al Jazeera, which reportedly featured photographs of hijackers, and included bin Ladin giving a brief description of each. It is another indication that the named hijackers were involved, and they’re now all dead. |
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