It should come as no surprise when statements made by influential people come to fruition.
quote:
Originally posted by dcougar99
just a few quotes...
Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms.
Aristotle
People never lie so much as after a hunt, during a war or before an election.
Otto von Bismarck
Until the lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter.
African proverb
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth.
Jewish Proverb
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever.
Chinese Proverb
colonelcrisp
and this proves what exactly?
metalgearsolid
quote:
Originally posted by colonelcrisp
and this proves what exactly?
What the hell do you mean what this proves? Idiot! From now on you go to ignore for not being able to put it all together BY your own. It shows you lack any understanding of the way people in power think. If you don't understand the way people who run the world think, than you shouldn't be posting in this forum in the first place.
Temperate
quote:
Originally posted by metalgearsolid
what a tool. He spends way too much time making sure his hands are doing the right thing.
ogvh5150
quote:
Originally posted by Temperate
what a tool. He spends way too much time making sure his hands are doing the right thing.
Let's ignore the 7 minutes of quotes and focus on the guys hands which is probably about 45 seconds of looking at the guys mug.
cenik
yes, w/o a doubt..........I think, to an extent, that it was an inside job: it's a perfect example of the gov't unleashing an attack on its own citizens in order to gain more & more control over society (a self-fulfilling prophecy).......another example of this technique? The Nazis' destruction of the Reichstag in the early 1930s in Ger.
occrider
quote:
Originally posted by ogvh5150
I am dissemating information from sources that I would consider credible. This would include gov't reports, public statements by officials, firsthand statements, multiple news sources, etc. I see people are shooting down the sources by discounting them as conspiracy theorists even though they have good information such as Prof. Jones. It's people like him that put their credibility on the line risking their livelihood. I would like for people to stand back and look at the whole picture in an objective mentality and not one with disdain and condescension just because they feel their favorite newscaster has more information than a university professor. As far as I can tell people here don't think I am credible and I don't see I have to prove to them anything, especially if they lean on what mainstream media tells them to. They rather read or listen to a small report rather than investigate for themselves. People are being dumbed down and they are ok with that. Rather than let their inquisitive minds investigate they rather just pounce on me and feel like a victor than actually use a few synapses and neurons to their advantage.
Well come now. You're not the only one here on this forum that is subject to criticism. Plenty of people here have posted counter arguments that include gov't reports, first hand statemnets, multiple news sources, etc., and yet you seem to dismiss these accounts as easily as others dismiss the arguemnts of "conspiracy theorists" as you so describe. I think several people have not dismissed your arguments so casually, and those are the people that have made specific efforts to research and directly address the specific arguments that you raise. It would seem that Pkraistlin has done so on some issues, I have done so on some issues however, when you or others fail to address our specific counter arguments with rational logic and evidence I don't quite see you as the victim of closemindedness, ignorance, or the lack of effort to debate.
This video shows two perspectives of the above collapse. The inset video shows the camera shake at roughly six seconds. Five seconds later the main video shows smoke appearing at the building's base. WMV video download (363kB)
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On the 13th-floor landing, McMillan stopped. Her 2-inch heels seemed like 10-foot stilts.
McMillan reached down to pull them off. She would walk the rest of the way barefoot.
She never took a step.
McMillan heard a rumble. "A big explosion," she now calls it.
"The wall I was facing just opened up, and it threw me on the other side," she says.
McMillan looked for Gonzalez.
"I was still holding Rosa's hand," McMillan says. "But she pulled away."
McMillan remembers Gonzalez trying to climb the stairs.
"I got up," McMillan says. "And I tried to go behind her. That's when the rubble just kept coming down."
She never saw Rosa Gonzalez again.
"Everything just kept coming harder and harder," McMillan says. "I just kept my head down. I don't know how I ended up the way I was. I don't know how I landed."
It was complete darkness.
She heard a man's voice.
"Help. Help. Help," she remembers him calling.
Then silence.
Then the building shook again. More debris fell.
"I thought I was really going to go down," McMillan recalls. "But I didn't."
Then the shaking stopped and the silence began.
"I couldn't do anything," McMillan remembers. "I couldn't move. I couldn't get the rubble off. Everything was just heavy. I couldn't see a thing. There was nothing else for me to do."
She believes she fell asleep.
Genelle Guzman McMillan can't account for every minute of her entombment. Her watch - a silver Citizen - survived, still ticking. She still wears it. But in the darkness, she couldn't see anything, not even the face of that watch.
She felt hot. She now thinks the fires deep in the rubble were starting to flare up. Then she felt wet from leaking water pipes.
With her left hand, she reached behind her - and felt something soft.
A body.
After her rescue, McMillan would learn she had landed atop a dead firefighter. Nearby was the body of another firefighter.
Yea well please respond to my arguments. And pkcRAISTLININ's as well ... I think they are valid.
ogvh5150
quote:
(Between Early 1984 and October 1985): Office of Special Planning Studies Vulnerability of WTC to Terrorist Attack
The Office of Special Planning (OSP), a unit set up by the New York Port Authority to assess the security of its facilities against terrorist attacks (see Early 1984), spends four to six months studying the World Trade Center. It examines the center’s design through looking at photographs, blueprints, and plans. It brings in experts such as the builders of the center, plus experts in sabotage and explosives, and has them walk through the WTC to identify any areas of vulnerability. According to New York Times reporters James Glanz and Eric Lipton, when Edward O’Sullivan, head of the OSP, looks at WTC security, he finds “one vulnerability after another. Explosive charges could be placed at key locations in the power system. Chemical or biological agents could be dropped into the coolant system. The Hudson River water intake could be blown up. Someone might even try to infiltrate the large and vulnerable subterranean realms of the World Trade Center site.” In particular, “There was no control at all over access to the underground, two-thousand-car parking garage.” However, O’Sullivan consults “one of the trade center’s original structural engineers, Les Robertson, on whether the towers would collapse because of a bomb or a collision with a slow-moving airplane.” He is told there is “little likelihood of a collapse no matter how the building was attacked.” [Glanz and Lipton, 2004, pp. 227; New York County Supreme Court, 1/20/2004] The OSP will issue its report called “Counter-Terrorism Perspectives: The World Trade Center” late in 1985 (see November 1985). Entity Tags:Edward O'Sullivan, World Trade Center, Office of Special Planning, Leslie Robertson
quote:
F. The Bombing
On February 26, 1993, at 12:18 p.m., a bomb exploded beneath the WTC, on the B-2 level of the underground parking garage, on a ramp that leads toward an exit from the garage. (See affidavit of Jan Gilhooly, dated Dec. 23, 2002.) The explosion had the force of 1,500 pounds of dynamite. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 65 [Goodman hearing transcript at 67].) The investigation revealed that the bomb had been detonated in a yellow van parked on the ramp of the public parking garage. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 64 [Goodman Report at 10].) Six people were killed, and many, many more were injured, mostly from smoke inhalation. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 65 [Goodman transcript at 67].) There was evidence that the perpetrators had made several surveillance visits to the garage, and drew maps of the garage. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 15 [Maikish deposition at 221, 268-269].) The explosion made a crater six stories deep, compressed several levels of concrete slab, blew down a wall onto the PATH concourse, and destroyed the walls of a number of elevator shafts. (Plaintiffs' exhibits 64 [Goodman Report at 10], 63 [House hearing transcript at 26].) The explosion destroyed the communications system, the police area and operations control center, and vital utility systems, including water and electrical, and fire standpipes. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 65 [Goodman hearing transcript at 71-72].) Because of the loss of the operations control center, the Port Authority lost the ability to communicate with tenants and their employees in the complex, and to institute its emergency evacuation procedures. (Plaintiffs' exhibit 64 [Goodman transcript at 26].)
A chunk of hot metal being removed from the North Tower rubble about eight weeks after 9/11. [Source: Frank Silecchia]
In the weeks and months after 9/11, numerous individuals report seeing molten metal in the remains of the World Trade Center: Ken Holden, who is involved with the organizing of demolition, excavation and debris removal operations at Ground Zero, later will tell the 9/11 Commission, “Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from [WTC] Building 6.” [9/11 Commission, 4/1/2003] William Langewiesche, the only journalist to have unrestricted access to Ground Zero during the cleanup operation, describes, “in the early days, the streams of molten metal that leaked from the hot cores and flowed down broken walls inside the foundation hole.” [Langewiesche, 2002, pp. 32] Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the WTC, describes fires still burning and molten steel still running 21 days after the attacks. [SEAU News, 10/2001 ] Alison Geyh, who heads a team of scientists studying the potential health effects of 9/11, reports, “Fires are still actively burning and the smoke is very intense. In some pockets now being uncovered, they are finding molten steel.” [Johns Hopkins Public Health Magazine, 2001] Ron Burger, a public health advisor who arrives at Ground Zero on September 12, says that “feeling the heat” and “seeing the molten steel” there reminds him of a volcano. [National Environmental Health Association, 9/2003, pp. 40 ] According to a member of New York Air National Guard’s 109th Air Wing, who is at Ground Zero from September 22 to October 6, “One fireman told us that there was still molten steel at the heart of the towers’ remains. Firemen sprayed water to cool the debris down but the heat remained intense enough at the surface to melt their boots.” [National Guard Magazine, 12/2001] New York firefighters recall “heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel.” [New York Post, 3/3/2004] As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O’Toole sees a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, “was dripping from the molten steel.” [Knight Ridder, 5/29/2002] Steven E. Jones, a physics professor from Utah, later will claim this molten metal is “direct evidence for the use of high-temperature explosives, such as thermite,” used to deliberately bring down the WTC towers. [MSNBC, 11/16/2005] He will say that without explosives, a falling building would have “insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal.” [Deseret Morning News, 11/10/2005] There is no mention whatsoever of the molten metal in the official reports by FEMA, NIST, or the 9/11 Commission. [Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002; 9/11 Commission, 7/24/2004; National Institute of Standards and Technology, 9/2005 ] But Dr. Frank Gayle, who leads the steel forensics aspects of NIST’s investigation of the WTC collapses, is quoted as saying, “Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that’s what melted the steel. Indeed it didn’t, the steel did not melt.” [ABC News 7 (New York), 2/7/2004] As well as the reports of molten metal, data collected by NASA in the days after 9/11 finds dozens of “hot spots” (some over 1300 degrees) at Ground Zero (see September 16-23, 2001).Entity Tags:Ken Holden, William Langewiesche, Leslie Robertson, Frank Gayle, Steven E. Jones, Joe O'Toole, Ron Burger, Alison Geyh, World Trade Center
pkcRAISTLIN
quote:
Originally posted by ogvh5150
New York firefighters recall “heat so intense they encountered rivers of molten steel.” [New York Post, 3/3/2004]
As late as five months after the attacks, in February 2002, firefighter Joe O’Toole sees a steel beam being lifted from deep underground at Ground Zero, which, he says, “was dripping from the molten steel.” [Knight Ridder, 5/29/2002] Steven E. Jones, a physics professor from Utah, later will claim this molten metal is “direct evidence for the use of high-temperature explosives, such as thermite,” used to deliberately bring down the WTC towers. [MSNBC, 11/16/2005] He will say that without explosives, a falling building would have “insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal.”
thermite produces molten iron, not molten steel. video of thermite in action please note exactly the way thermite burns (theres no way its gonna burn sideways through a steel pillar), and how much thermite is required to put a hole in the bonnet of a car. how much thermite would be required to burn through the WTC pillars do you think?
quote:
Note how much thermite is used. The pot is about a liter, but how much thermite is that?
Stoichiometric thermite requires 2 moles of Al per 1 mole of Fe2O3
2Al + Fe2O3 = Al2O3 + 2Fe
2 moles of Al weigh 54 g
1 mole of Fe2O3 weighs 160 g
density of Al=2.64 g/cc
density of Fe2O3=5.24 g/cc
54 grams of Al is equivalent to 20.5 cc of Al.
160g of Fe2O3 is equivalent to 30.5 cc of Fe2O3
Therefore, 51 cc of fully dense powder of 20.5 cc Al and 30.5 cc Fe2O3 weighs (54+160) g = 214 g.
A volume of 1000 cc would weigh (1000/51)*214 = 4.2 kg
For a powder packing density of 50%, the powder would weigh:
0.5*4.2 kg = 2.1 kg = 4.8 lb
That much just to burn a small hole in a small car engine. I bet it's even an aluminum block but lets say it isn't. How much do you think it would take to burn a massive core column? Then add enough to burn for 6 weeks! You see where we're going. You'd need tons.
and again, jones' quotes are hardly good evidence as he hasnt the experience to analyse the complexities of the WTC collapse. why would you put his arguments above all of his compatriots at his university that ARE experts in their field, that have totally disowned his "research"?
intellectual dishonesty is the only answer i can come up with.
quote:
Originally posted by occrider
Yea well please respond to my arguments. And pkcRAISTLININ's as well ... I think they are valid.
Ken Holden, who is involved with the organizing of demolition, excavation and debris removal operations at Ground Zero, later will tell the 9/11 Commission, “Underground, it was still so hot that molten metal dripped down the sides of the wall from [WTC] Building 6.” [
