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Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11? (pg. 73)
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| _Ocean_Drive_ |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
yes, i believed him. but it had nothing to do with what he said. i always believed hussein had kept weapons. so did much of the world.
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I didn't :p, at least not nuclear ones capable of attacking Washington.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
of course they can lie. i dont trust the administration either. but its not just them. you have to consider the huge number of people in the government as well. i know a lot of people like to label the government as one large evil entity, but theyre pretty much people like you and i that happen to have gainful employment in the public sector. |
Agreed.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the MASSIVE operation that was 9/11 just wouldnt be possible to carry out from inside the government and gotten away with. the sheer logistical nightmare that would be the planting of bombs in the WTCs is just the tip of the ice berg. fooling NORAD & NIST and eye-witnesses (especially re the pentagon) just wouldnt be possible. too many eyes and ears and brains. |
Hehe, you remind me of the arguments I have with my dad on this.
Black ops, as you say, are carried out. I have issues with quite a few things on Loose Change, but I just can't help feel that there are things about 9/11 that simply don't add up. And I'm basing this on evidence, or at least from what I hear and see with my own eyes in the media / internet etc. Basic simple questions have yet to be answered, or at least given a satisfactory explanation for.
A couple of old-chestnuts of mine are:
1) Why is there no video of plane hitting pentagon, (even from surrounding gas stations etc.
2) Why 2/3 frames of one the biggest, intrusive attacks on American soil at one of the most secure institutions in the country?
3) Why was there just a hole in the ground in PA? Yeah, I know a plane hitting at 500 mph (or argument's sake) would create a hole of some magnitude, but why no bits of aircraft, no bodies, no seats, wings, engines, cockpit, no nothing?
4) WTC 7
5) Removal of sniffer dogs etc from WTC buildings
6) The lease and insurance taken out 3? months before to specifically include terror attacks?
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
governments just dont work like this. sure, black ops are carried out and evil things done by governments all round the world. but not like this, on this kind of scale. here is a government that couldn't "find" WMDs in iraq?? so youre ready to believe a massive conspiracy -taking in so many levels of government its not funny- to invade iraq, yet you dont find it weird that the US didnt plant some evidence of WMDs to justify the attack?? |
Governments can do whatever they want theoretically. Do you know that in times of declared emergency, the head of FEMA can take control of the country?
Planting evidence in a foreign country is excrutiatingly more difficult than planting it in your own. But if people are naive enough to believe Iraq had WMD's, then why not naive enough to believe official administration story of 911?
Iraq is a neo-con agenda to finish off what Daddy started. Period. I don't see how it can be viewed any other way.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
contrary to what people here seem to believe, the US government is comprised of thousands of individuals, its not one single entity with a "hive mind" that can act and do as it pleases with all members following blindly. |
Theoretically it is, but history and commmon sense would suggest that it's the ones at the top who pull the strings
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
there were a million and one safer ways to carry out a similar attack that would have been far easier to effect than this huge and ridiculously complicated scheme. theres just no way in hell the US government would go to such treasoness(sp?) lengths in such a dangerous and convoluted way, with every chance of getting caught.
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Caught by whom?? Who holds the 3 branches of government to account? It's not the people after you've been sworn in.
Why make the attack 'safe'. This attack (regardless of whoever you think it was done by) scared America, and allowed for disgusting abuses of freedom such as Guantanemo bay and US PATRIOT Act.
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
the entire conspiracy makes no sense at all. |
We agree to disagree ;) Although I don't believe EVERYTHING in LC. The one point for me they don't answer is "where are all these people who suppoedly landed at Denver airport"? Alot of LC raises questions and doesn't provide their own answers, but I do agree with alot of it - There are gaping holes that (for me) are not answered. |
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| culorut |
| quote: | Originally posted by pkcRAISTLIN
i love it how your sites directly contradict each other. good work there. yep, there was one big conspiracy between all governmental departments :rolleyes: i can understand the obsession to make 9/11 a much more exciting affair, but the you children will swallow is amazing :haha:
i guess your lives are more interesting than the rest of us though.
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My life is more interesting than yours I can assure you. Posting pictures non relevant to the subject at hand only makes you look dumb.
Seems like you have nothing left to post and you are getting by with personal attacks.
Typical actions of a child getting cornered and the defense mechanism invoked because of it.
Is there not a minimum age when signing up to these forums? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
I didn't :p, at least not nuclear ones capable of attacking Washington. |
oh, i never believed that. what a load of bollocks. i was more concerned about the sarin gas. and not coz it threatened the west, but because it threatened iraq.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Black ops, as you say, are carried out. I have issues with quite a few things on Loose Change, but I just can't help feel that there are things about 9/11 that simply don't add up. And I'm basing this on evidence, or at least from what I hear and see with my own eyes in the media / internet etc. Basic simple questions have yet to be answered, or at least given a satisfactory explanation for. |
have you seen "screw loose change" you really owe to yourself to see the other side of the story. its loose change but with edits to show what a joke of a research effort it really is. its probably the worst doco ive seen regarding 911.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
A couple of old-chestnuts of mine are:
1) Why is there no video of plane hitting pentagon, (even from surrounding gas stations etc. |
for this to be a relevant point you would have to show that there are actually cameras that were capable of capturing the attack. thus far i have seen no evidence at all that this is true.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
2) Why 2/3 frames of one the biggest, intrusive attacks on American soil at one of the most secure institutions in the country? |
as above. also, the quality of closed-circuit cameras comes into question, theyre not just rolling with perfect film rates. its no surprise that a jet travelling at 500mph+ isnt caught very well on cameras shooting at low frame rates.
also, honestly- where did all the wreckage come from? not to mention the dead bodies and personal effects. where did the plane and passengers really go? what about the hundreds of witnesses that saw the crash?
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
3) Why was there just a hole in the ground in PA? Yeah, I know a plane hitting at 500 mph (or argument's sake) would create a hole of some magnitude, but why no bits of aircraft, no bodies, no seats, wings, engines, cockpit, no nothing? |
ever seen the wreckage of planes that have hit the earth? planes are light and easily destructible. quite often very little is ever found. again- watch screw loose change.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
4) WTC 7 |
come on dude. there is so much evidence out there regarding the fires that tore threw the building. dozens of firefighter quotes. ive pasted them before in this thread if you care to look. basically the building burned for over 5 hours and they new hours beforehand that it was gonna collapse.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
5) Removal of sniffer dogs etc from WTC buildings |
im unsure about this. but i would like to ask how such a MASSIVE (and we're talking weeks and weeks and weeks) planting of explosive devices could have occured without anyone noticing. also there is the question of explosives- as yet there hasnt been a single plausible type of explosive suggested that could have been used. not one.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
6) The lease and insurance taken out 3? months before to specifically include terror attacks? |
oh come on. you think the building owners were "let in" to this ultra-top secret operation? thats just ludicrous. also, check the actual facts and you will realise the building owner(s) lost a few hundred million dollars in the attacks. contrary to what CTers will tell you, there certainly wasnt a profit made. again, look beyond sites like 911truth.org like any good researcher should.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Planting evidence in a foreign country is excrutiatingly more difficult than planting it in your own. But if people are naive enough to believe Iraq had WMD's, then why not naive enough to believe official administration story of 911? |
because the "official" story from the administration has stood up to far more scrutiny than any CT theory ever has. not to mention the hundreds of experts (like all the engineers) that examined the collapse of the towers. do you really think some spotty kids can see the truth where all the government & private experts could not?
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Iraq is a neo-con agenda to finish off what Daddy started. Period. I don't see how it can be viewed any other way. |
irrelevant to the question at hand. the manipulation and opportunism after the fact is not evidence of complicity or design.
will be back later, got work to do :( |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Caught by whom?? Who holds the 3 branches of government to account? It's not the people after you've been sworn in. |
the media. any of the investigative teams that analysed any particular part of the overall attack. think about how many things would have to go perfectly for everyone to be fooled. if you were planning an attack theres no way in hell you would EVER design something as convoluted as this. the possibility of discovery or failure in one way or another are just far too high.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
Why make the attack 'safe'. This attack (regardless of whoever you think it was done by) scared America, and allowed for disgusting abuses of freedom such as Guantanemo bay and US PATRIOT Act. |
safe meaning "successful" and "easy to carry out". as above. and again, the activities after the fact arent evidence. you cant point to how bush & the neo-cons used the situation and say thats evidence of anything apart from political opportunism. its illogical. its not evidence.
| quote: | Originally posted by _Ocean_Drive_
We agree to disagree ;) Although I don't believe EVERYTHING in LC. The one point for me they don't answer is "where are all these people who suppoedly landed at Denver airport"? Alot of LC raises questions and doesn't provide their own answers, but I do agree with alot of it - There are gaping holes that (for me) are not answered. |
seriously, LC is a pile of on so many levels and i urge you to watch screw loose change before finalising your opinions. |
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| xstalkrx |
| quote: | Originally posted by culorut
My life is more interesting than yours I can assure you. Posting pictures non relevant to the subject at hand only makes you look dumb.
Seems like you have nothing left to post and you are getting by with personal attacks.
Typical actions of a child getting cornered and the defense mechanism invoked because of it.
Is there not a minimum age when signing up to these forums? |
It's because we get tired of arguing, so we have a little fun.
Thanks for the assesment though, Dr. Phil. |
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| Magnetonium |
I prefer Terrorstorm - better evidence, admitted by the governments, historical facts. Gives you a valid pretext to re-consider what happened on 9/11 if you think it was the terrorists and not the government. Government-sponsored terrorism and false flag operations have happened many times in our history. Most have got away with what they did, even though people found out later. So what? |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by alchimist
I’m amazed that as the western world becomes “more” educated, people still have very strange beliefs. Before letting your imagination run wild and watching some crappy video on the internet made up of non classified material, facts which on closer inspection contradict the word, and not to forget the spooky sound track. |
I bet if I asked you how many times insert favorite football team name here won a cup you would respond wouldn't you? You're on the internet arguing in a "strange beliefs" forum. Like I've said before; people arguing they're not gay in a gay bar.
| quote: | You need to ask yourself the simple question, whats the more likely explanation.
For complex matters in science you cant always rely on common sense and critical thinking, you need to look at all the facts. |
It's no mystery if a water faucet is on somehow, sometime you're gonna get your hand wet should you decide to put it in the way of the stream of water. That's common sense. Common sense is also that you look before you enter the lift unless you want to fall down the shaft. Critical thinking is where you actually take a moment to think; should I or shouldn't I? Science is the explanation of why, who, what, where and when. Science, most likely, would have you believe you came from cavemen. So if your belief is such; then it should come as no surprise if they treat you as theorized. After all you came from apes didn't you? If you believe in that theory you can believe one more. Only difference is that the theory of gov't complicity is not far fetched but proven if you look into Operation Northwoods.
| quote: | | I emphasise all, as conspiracy theorists in general often cling onto one piece of circumstantial evidence (or more often than not, no evidence at all) and ignore the contradicting 99% of evidence. An often forgotten practice of science is you need to record the misses as well as the hits and only then draw conclusions. |
Circumstantial evidence and corroborating evidence are two wholly different things. But I get what you mean:
Circumstantial evidence shows that you're an idiot. Corroborating evidence would be your post(s). Remember that next time you call people "fools" and "morons" in order to pigeonhole them.
| quote: | | However this isn’t a complex matter of science, although this wonderful tool can be used to bebunk every single argument the morons who think 9/11 is faked can come up with. |
Science only has theories into 9/11 and not proof. Without that steel there can be no proper testing.
| quote: | | For example I remember some fool banging on about the fact the fire didn’t reach the necessary temperature to melt steel. Correct! (mp of steel is about 1,500 degrees, normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g. jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees) However the fool either ignored or was simply ignorant to the fact when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Therefore, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) was to be expected. |
If you're gonna cut and paste the FAQ at the NIST WTC at least give them credit. Without that steel and testing of temperature stresses on that steel; one can come up with a goofy idea such as theirs. In other words they have a theory that they can back up if they actually tested the steel for thermal and/or explosive stresses. But somehow we're supposed to take their word at face value.
| quote: | | It is a matter of above all else common sense. Ask yourself what benefits would the government get from faking 9/11. I’m serious here what benefits??? |
USA PATRIOT ACT I and II are examples for now.
| quote: | | Even if the government does only look after the top 2% and big business I still fail to see how it would aid them destroying the world trade centres. In the short term it did terrible things to their economy, and as we have seen America attacks anyone it likes, they could just come up with a normal lie, like sadam has WMDs… which doesn’t involve seriously effecting their economy and killing thousands of Americans. |
Are you saying that lying about WMDs didn't kill or hurt anyone? Are you for real? Anti-american sentiment is one thing but ignorance shouldn't be one of your strong points.
Instead of saying "America attacks anyone it likes" say "the American government attacks anyone it likes", because there is a difference. I know I didn't attack anyone in my life outside of the US or inside for that matter.
| quote: | | This leads onto the point, if indeed the government had murdered 3000 of its own citizens, don’t you think they would just kill the people making the 9/11 “the truth” videos and other crap??? |
They have people like you come here and try to kill credibility. They don't need to spend money on a bullet if they have shills like you for free.
| quote: | | This alone practically proves 9/11 wasn’t faked, your telling me that a government that can execute an operation with such precision and keep it a secrete, couldn’t stop some high school kids posting videos on the web…I mean at least be consistent. |
So you advocate murder? In order to prove that 9/11 was not faked it be better if 9/11 naysayers were dead? Do you even understand or know what you're implying?
| quote: | | If your not already convinced, this point is key (it also applies to people who think the moon landings were faked). The conspiracy would involve too many people for it ever to remain secrete!!! There are leeks all the time, governments cant keep secrete who’s having an affair with who… So many people were involved with the investigation, the conspiracy would have to involve thousands of people, which due to human nature isn’t possible! |
The "conspiracy" made thousands of people pass on information that Saddam had nukes. It wasn't impossible in 2003 before the invasion. It shouldn't be impossible before 2001. If you've read anything about Operation Northwoods, Operation PBSUCCESS or Operation PBFORTUNE and Operation Ajax for examples, you would see this pattern by now.
| quote: | | Basically people need to get a grip, and try and think about things. I mean whats more likely, some alien travels across the universe to leave a crop circle in farmer bob’s field, or someone fakes it on photoshop? |
So you're saying what? You believe in crop circles and the aliens that left them? Do you also believe in cow mutilating aliens too? People in glass houses...
| quote: | | Before we claim stuff is out of this world we should first check it’s not in this world! Conspiracy theorists should peel their eyes away from the latest mis information and bad science they are reading and look to see what company they are in. |
Right you are. So do us a favor and next time keep your one singular silence breaking post to yourself for rhetoric that means something.
| quote: | | How many leading mathematicians, physicists, chemists, economists, etc are with them??? |
Dr. Stephen Jones for one, who had questioned the "official" story of 9/11 from a physicists standpoint. Until money got in the way and had him bounced from teaching in the University. I say money because someone somewhere must have said they would pull certain university funding if Dr. Jones kept on with his revealing study into the WTC complex. But people like you are smarter than a physicist. No doubt about it.
| quote: | | And on the other hand how many kids and people who spent far too much time on the internet instead of the real world are in their corner??? |
Then explain why did you respond after a two year silence?
| quote: | | Lets not forgot that around ¼ of Americans believe that aliens are abducting people, so the comment, a large number of people are simply thick is very accurate. |
Are you saying that since 75% don't believe in aliens that makes them "thick'? By your logic; if 75% don't believe they descended from apes, would that make them unintelligent? Are you saying that the 60% in this poll that believe in a gov't cover up are idiots?
| quote: | | I think the previous sentence sadly sums up why so many people believe 9/11 was faked. |
The only thing summed up was that you offered nothing worthwhile in the rhetoric you've just brandished. |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Science only has theories into 9/11 and not proof. Without that steel there can be no proper testing. |
despite what crackpot here thinks the steel WAS tested.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Dr. Stephen Jones for one, who had questioned the "official" story of 9/11 from a physicists standpoint. Until money got in the way and had him bounced from teaching in the University. I say money because someone somewhere must have said they would pull certain university funding if Dr. Jones kept on with his revealing study into the WTC complex. But people like you are smarter than a physicist. No doubt about it. |
hahahahaha. oh, good old dr jones. a physicist, but NOT a structural engineer. his paper STILL hasnt been peer reviewed either. the first step in gaining scientific credibility. no engineer on the planet agrees with his findings. and jones was stood down from his position at BYU because his theories were bringing the uni's reputation into disrepute. but of course, its more cloak and daggers stuff for those that constantly have to see things that arent there. itd be funny if it wasnt so sad. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| ^^ Troll post #... I lost count LOL :D. |
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| ogvh5150 |
+1
Cowards and punks behind keyboards always asking their mummy for a quid or two to make sure internet is up and running.
Ahh the power of the ignore feature. I don't need to see people making fools of themselves. Too bad some people don't use it for their benefit so they don't have to respond to me.
But their a bit oddly curious the lot they are.
As I always say:
If my answers scare you then stop asking scary questions.
Taken from the film Pulp Fiction
But people always give credence to my argument every time they want to troll and flamebait.
A bit odd the bunch, not knowing the shills are the shills that they are. Sponsored by the Ford Foundation.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Yeah the TV or PC is not a mind control device.
As regards the condition of the hemispheres themselves, an alert state of the nervous system is absolutely essential for the formation of a new conditioned reflex. If the dog is mostly drowsy during the experiments, the establishment of a conditioned reflex becomes a long and tedious process, and in extreme cases is impossible to accomplish. The hemispheres must, however, be free from any other nervous activity, and therefore in building up a new conditioned reflex it is important to avoid foreign stimuli which, falling upon the animal, would cause other reactions of their own. If this is not attended to, the establishment of a conditioned reflex is very difficult, if not impossible.
Conditioned Reflexes: An Investigation of the Physiological Activity of the Cerebral Cortex
Ivan P. Pavlov
*bell rings* |
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| culorut |
Why Has the Greatest Crime in U.S. History Never Been Criminally Investigated?
and other Unanswered Questions about September 11, 2001
For five years the 911truth movement has been quietly building support. While many ideas and theories have been put forth about what happened in that fateful day, the main thrust of the movement is to push for a new investigation of 9/11 to answer the many still unanswered questions such as:
The Warnings:
Why did the administration ignore warnings, some specific as to date and place, from at least 11 foreign intelligence services delivered to Washington prior to 9/11? Why were several prominent Americans, including top military brass, warned not to fly on 9/11?
Missing Air Defense:
Why was established procedure not followed to intercept any of the hijacked planes on 9/11? Why did the defense missiles on top of the Pentagon not fire at the attacking plane as it flew toward the Pentagon? (Had they been disabled?) If the defense failures were due to incompetence, why was no one reprimanded or fired? Was air defense lacking because of the military exercises underway on the morning of 9/11?
Pilots of the Hijacked Planes:
How could an inexperienced pilot have successfully flown a heavy commercial airliner on his first try? Why were some of the alleged terrorists trained at U.S. military bases and CIA flight schools?
The Alleged Hijackers:
Why is it that at least six of the hijackers who were supposed to have died on 9/11 are alive and well, giving interviews and living in the Middle East? If no Arab names were on the passenger manifests released by the airlines following 9/11, how could names and photographs of the alleged hijackers have been broadcast around the world within hours of the attacks? Why were no airline tickets or receipts ever presented as evidence?
The Money:
If “follow the money” is the time-honored criminal investigative technique for uncovering criminal collusion, why did the 9/11 Commission elect to drop the pursuit of mainstream-documented leads such as the $100,000 wire transfer from the head of Pakistan’s intelligence service to alleged lead hijacker Mohammad Atta several days before the attacks. Why was the extreme level of options trading activity in American and United Airlines stock in the days before 9/11, a clear indication of foreknowledge of the attacks, never pursued?
The Plane Crashes:
How could one of the hijacker’s passports emerge from the wreckage of the Twin Towers and be found intact on the streets of New York? Why was debris from the Pennsylvania plane scattered over an area of several miles, and not confined to the 10 by 30 ft foot hole where the official story says the plane crashed? Why were no large plane parts found at the crash site? Why are the 9/11 plane crashes the only ones in modern U.S. history not to have been investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board? Why were none of the thousands of serial numbered parts ever presented as proof of the identity of the aircraft?
Collapse of the Twin Towers:
What caused the massive explosions in the basements of the Towers before the planes even hit (which registered as small earthquakes at Colombia University) and the hundreds of explosions reported by witnesses before and during the buildings collapses? How is it possible for the Towers to completely collapse in the same amount of time it would take for a brick to fall through air from the same height? How were the concrete floors, walls, computers, furniture and other materials atomized into dust? How could brief jet fuel fires have caused the buildings’ collapse when no steel building has ever collapsed due to fire in the entire history of architecture?
World Trade Center 7 Collapse:
Why did this 47-story steel office building, which was not hit by any plane, collapse completely in 6.7 seconds at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11? What did its owner Larry Silverstein mean when he said the decision had been made to “pull” the building? Was WTC 7 wired with explosives prior to 9/11? If so, were explosives also planted in the Twin Towers prior to the attacks?
The 9/11 Commission and It's Report:
Why, if it had nothing to hide about the attacks, did the Bush Administration resist 9/11 families’ call for an investigative commission for an unprecedented 441 days. Why was administration insider Philip Zelikow, who had co-authored a book with Condi Rice, and whose CV states that his expertise is in the creation and maintenance of public myth, appointed to direct the Commission?
Why did Bush and Cheney refuse to testify in public, under oath, to the Commission? Why did the Commission members accept the official conspiracy theory as their operating premise and say early-on that they would not investigate what happened on 9/11 and who was responsible. Why was the destruction of World Trade Center Building 7 not mentioned in the report?
False Flag Operation:
Was 9/11 a “false flag” operation, used throughout history to generate public support for political objectives by deliberately creating a terror incident and blaming the attack on a designated enemy, thus serving as a justification for war? |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
why are people asking the same, tired old questions that have been answered dozens of times before?
"i need to believe". its pitiful. |
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