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Do you believe there is a U.S. government cover-up surrounding 9/11? (pg. 24)
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| seval |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
You are now comparing the Bush administration to Nazi Germany...whether you like it or not that is what you have done. And i will not entertain that.
Thank you...but you backed nothing up...your claim was that Bush and Blair downright admitted they "LIED"...and you did not back that up.
Blair saying they made a mistake is not saying he lied.
You are a conspiracy theorists...you are entertaining the notion that Bush and his pals carried out 9.11. That is a conspiracy.
You want to get into it?
Conspiracy people are a different tribe. You think & perceive differently from the rest of us. You SEE signs of the takeover everywhere. To you, it’s incredibly obvious. People who deny it have to be dumb, brainwashed, compartmentalized...or agents for the bad guys.
Conspiracy people don’t want to talk about WHETHER a takeover is going on. They want to get together & talk about it. You want to elaborate their fantasy.
Conspiracy nuts tend to be different from normal people because:
- they think they can predict the future
- they think they have access to “secret information”
- they think they’re cleverer than anyone else in the world (because they see the takeover everyone is missing)
- they see brainwashing in everything
- they accuse anyone who disagrees with them of being ignorant or blinded
- they never consult experts (& are in fact suspicious of real experts), but instead figure it all out themselves, being, as they are, geniuses
- they tend to see the government as the font of all evil & to blame the government for absolutely everything
- they believe weird things about the Federal Reserve & monetary policy
- they believe weird things about the United Nations
- they cannot perceive the logical inconsistencies in their scenario
So now lets get into the HOAX that Bush carried out on the world by secfretly concocting 9.11 and bring down 2 towers in NYC and the part of the Pentago...shall we?
Now try to focus.
You & the other 9/11 conspiracists are telling a silly, absurd story. You’re postulating that the conspirators planned this incredible caper...but they FORGOT to put out debris around the Pentagon.
Are you serious?
You’re saying that--after all this planning--they just up & FORGOT how to cover their tracks. They forgot to plant the bodies (silly guys!). O...& then they spread debris around while the site was being photographed, those reckless rascals.
Duh. Were they trying to leave clues for conspiracy buffs?
& yet these scatterbrained schemers have fooled everyone in the world but you with their elaborate caper. It boggles the mind.
Your government perps are imaginary. There was no inside job. 9/11 was brought to us by real terrorists, who probably never heard any of your crazy theories about what they did.
This pervasive emotional distemper is almost universal amongst conspiracy guys, & the political right in general. They harbor nearly megalomaniacal delusions, i.e., they honest-to-God think they’re the smartest guys in the world. They think they can read people’s minds & see behind the illusion.
It’s often as not an angry white guy who perceives the scam in a bunch of blurry tapes & photographs. Rumors & amateur science also help, though the real experts never seem to sign on.
Conspiracy guys can’t seem to see that the perpetrators of a hoax would want their cover story to appear real & believable. Conspirators don’t want impossible or fantastic things happening. They would take measures to attract as little attention as possible to the hoax.
So every time one of you conspiracist starts rattling off weird anomalies––inept pilots flying like aces; a symmetrical demolition performed right in front of everybody; having passports appear out of nowhere––you are actually proving it was not a conspiracy.
What conspirators would forget to put bodies & wreckage around the Pentagon, then try to do it while rescue workers & photographers milled around? What conspirators would allow supposed hijackers to be found alive? Why would they say the hijackers used pocket knives, when they could just as well supplied them with Uzis?
Anomalies are exactly what conspirators would avoid, especially if they’ve been able to fool everyone in the world except sharpies like seval and the rest of twits on here. There might be flaws in the story. But there would not be the egregious anomalies the conspiracy guys talk about.
Conspiracy guys don’t seem able to understand this point. But I thought some of the other members of the forum might get the point.
Like all conspiracists, you are a fantasist, in love with your fantasy.
This has never struck us as an idea that made much sense, especially if you believe the US Government were behind 9/11. If you were constructing a fake terrorist attack because you wanted to attack Afghanistan, or Iraq, then wouldn’t you involve a few Afghans or Iraqis? But no, we’re supposed to believe that they made them inconvenient Saudis, instead.
Worse still, the planners picked live Saudis almost at random, despite the fact that they’d be sure to come forward and spoil the whole thing. Why would anyone do that?
What’s more, all these stories occurred very soon after 9/11. Once the FBI released their official list of hijackers, complete with photographs (on the 27th September), these stories disappeared. This suggests to us they were only ever a mixup over names, and once the photos appeared as well these individuals realised they weren’t wanted men after all.
And in fact if you look at the details, you’ll find this seems the most likely explanation. Read more in analyses of the most common “still alive” stories: Abdulaziz Al Omari, Ahmed Al-Nami, Khalid Al Mihdhar, Mohammed Atta, Said al-Ghamdi, Salem Al-Hamzi, Wail Al-Shehri and Waleed Al-Shehri.
Name confusion persists elsewhere, too, in the suggestion that some of the hijackers trained at Pensacola Air Force Base. Some people report this as absolute fact, but like so much of the 9/11 conspiracy story, it ain’t necessarily so.
One factor complicating the investigation is that the hijackers' Arabic names are remarkably common. For example, when investigators went to the Naval Air Base in Pensacola, the address listed on a Florida driver's license issued to a Saeed Alghamdi in 1997, they learned that several people by that name had attended flight school there over the past 10 years.
"What we have here is a situation of people with identical names", said Harry White, public affairs officer at the base. He said the school has had more than 1,600 people with the first name Saeed, spelled various ways, and more than 200 with the surname Alghamdi.
White maintains, however, that none of the Saeed Alghamdi students was involved with terrorist activity. "We have found no direct connection between any of the foreign students trained at NAS Pensacola and any of the terrorist suspects,? he said.
http://www.humanunderground.com/11s...-hijackers.html
More than 200 Saeed Alghamdis? This shows how unsurprising the “hijackers still alive” stories are. And how none of them yet provide proof that the person they’re referring to matches the claimed hijacker.
Another development makes this even less likely. Because if some of the named Saudis are still alive and innocent, then why has Saudi Arabia now accepted that they were involved?
Saudi Arabia acknowledged for the first time that 15 of the Sept. 11 suicide hijackers were Saudi citizens...
Previously, Saudi Arabia had said the citizenship of 15 of the 19 hijackers was in doubt despite U.S. insistence they were Saudis. But Interior Minister Prince Nayef told The Associated Press that Saudi leaders were shocked to learn 15 of the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia.
"The names that we got confirmed that," Nayef said in an interview. "Their families have been notified."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/02/06/saudi.htm
And subsequently a video called “the 19 Martyrs” was released and partly aired on al Jazeera, which reportedly featured photographs of hijackers, and included bin Ladin giving a brief description of each. You’ll find a detailed page on the video here, with some interesting new photos, and we’ve saved a copy locally for posterity. We don’t know if the video is real, or this is an accurate account of it, but if true then it is another indication that the named hijackers were involved, and they’re now all dead. |
like i said before you are quite clearly an uneducated politics, have you noticed every single link you have sent me is an americian site? not one from outside the us. you are a fool and like i said i wasnt calling the bush administration nazis if you were able to infer which you aernt i was saying that bush is worse and you will have it because like it or not it is the view of eurpoe apart from england.
every time you try to back a claim up you rely on websites known for their sycophantic alliance with the government and your failing to listin to anybody else in this forum has made you look like a fool, i spent hours reading books, going to lectures and researching the net before i made up my mind as to what happened, you quite clearly havent and as a result you have a limited arsenal to attack me with, most of your posts are from what has been said in media, little or none of what you post is your own words, your posts are not facts as most of your claims have been dismised as nonsense. wtf is your last paragraph all about the bbc has proved that 9 of the suicide bombers are still alive and well today what part of that do you not understand, google it and find out for yourself.
ill tell you what if you can find any information from the last 6 months that doesnt contradict what was said when the attacks first happen then i would consider a different course of action, no im not talking about americian government websites (ill give you a hint they are the ones with a .gov in the http address not a .com) im talking about you accually spending serious time of your life researching this as i have, finding INDEPENDANT research reports that back up what you say i can gaurentee that you are in for a big suprise. |
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| stevieboy32808 |
Tiesto14 is right when it comes this part. It checks out and is consistent with the combustion diffuser case of a 757. Boeing contracts a lot of people to do their engines, but specifically the engines used on the 757-200 can only be from either of these 2 brands:
Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4
Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4B
OR
Pratt & Whitney PW2037
Pratt & Whitney PW2040
If you look at the second picture which is more detailed you notice the number RB-211. The piece at the crash matches that of the Rolls Royce engine also titled RB211.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/75...pf_200tech.html
According to Russell Pickering of 911review.org this is what he says regarding the wheel hub: "[that photo] is not from the Pentagon. It is from the WTC.”
Finally a piece that tiesto14 left out was this:
The picture can be found here. The ID for the pictures are 4414 and 4415.
As you may or may not know a plane has three main components: The 2 engines with the huge turbines on the wings and the APU (auxiliary power unit) located at the tail of the 757 which contain a smaller turbine inside. The APU serves as a generator or power source to the airplane. Think of it like the alternator in a car.
Anyways “several readers wrote to American Free Press suggesting that the unidentified disc was a piece from the APU mounted in the tail section of a Boeing 757. Honeywell [is the company that] makes the APU used on the 757 aircraft. “AFP contacted Honeywell’s Aerospace division in Phoenix, Ariz., and sent high-resolution photos for their examination. “There’s no way that’s an APU wheel,” an expert at Honeywell told AFP. The expert, who cannot be named, added: “That turbine disc—there’s no way in the world that came out of an APU.”
“If the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757-200 owned by American Airlines, then it would have to be a Rolls Royce engine,” Mark Sullivan, spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, told AFP.
John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had previously told AFP: “It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I’m familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.”
The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the military’s unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grumman’s subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999.
If the government version that an American Airlines 757-200 hit the Pentagon is accurate, then the object in the photo would have to be from a Rolls Royce RB211-535 turbofan engine.
When AFP told Brown that it must be a piece of a Rolls Royce engine, Brown balked and asked who at Pratt & Whitney had provided the information.
Asked again if the disc in the photo is a piece of a Rolls Royce RB211-535, or from the AE 3007 series, Brown said he could not answer.
AFP then asked Brown if he was actually familiar with the parts of an AE 3007H, which is made at the Indiana plant: “No,” Brown said. “I don’t build the engines. I am a spokesman for the company. I speak for the company.”
http://www.americanfreepress.net/10...y_swirling.html
Neither Honeywell nor Rolls Royce claim this piece. With that said we can conclude that this piece as well as the wheel hub is evidence alone to reexamine what really happened on that fateful day when the Pentagon was hit. Why were there different parts? What was in that crate they were carrying away? If only the government would release those tapes then and only then would I have some peace. Darn! |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
like i said before you are quite clearly an uneducated politics, have you noticed every single link you have sent me is an americian site? not one from outside the us. you are a fool |
So what if it is an American link. Do you dismiss everything from America lie? What if i gave you a link from Noam Chomsky who hates Bush..does he lie also?
You are seriously delusional and have nothing better to say execpt that i am an uneducated fool. You have brought absolutley NOTHING to the tabel to refute my claims except to say i am a dumb American. You sir are very sad.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
and like i said i wasnt calling the bush administration nazis if you were able to infer which you aernt i was saying that bush is worse and you will have it because like it or not it is the view of eurpoe apart from england. |
Hitler beleived in his final solution that killed millions upon millions of Jews and beleived he was doing the work of his God. Bush is not even close to the same caliber of a person.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
every time you try to back a claim up you rely on websites known for their sycophantic alliance with the government and your failing to listin to anybody else in this forum has made you look like a fool, |
I posted links to acclaimed engineers froma ll over the world, univericities and many organiztions not connected with any government...you would know that if you cared to click one and read it. Again you are wrong....and youa re the one calling me a fool cus i dont buy into your theories that you have yet to show proof of.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
i spent hours reading books, going to lectures and researching the net before i made up my mind as to what happened, you quite clearly havent and as a result you have a limited arsenal to attack me with, most of your posts are from what has been said in media, |
Actually i used to buy into the 9.11 conspiracy until i spent 2 years researching it...again you are wrong.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
little or none of what you post is your own words, your posts are not facts as most of your claims have been dismised as nonsense. |
Whos words are they? What facts have i posted that you can say are false? i gladly challenge you to refute them...i am waiting.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
wtf is your last paragraph all about the bbc has proved that 9 of the suicide bombers are still alive and well today what part of that do you not understand, google it and find out for yourself. |
Show me a link from the BBC...not another site...but from the BBC that claims they are still alive and i will beleive it...BUT the link has to be from 2003 to date...because as i said there was much name confusion going on.
Oh and Saudi Arabia already confirmed they are dead...but i will gladly wait for your link from the BBC that you are relying on...go get it for me and change my mind.
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
ill tell you what if you can find any information from the last 6 months that doesnt contradict what was said when the attacks first happen then i would consider a different course of action, no im not talking about americian government websites (ill give you a hint they are the ones with a .gov in the http address not a .com) im talking about you accually spending serious time of your life researching this as i have, finding INDEPENDANT research reports that back up what you say i can gaurentee that you are in for a big suprise. |
Listen i do not need to...Saudi Arabia confirmed it...you claim the BBC says it...well show me. |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by stevieboy32808
Tiesto14 is right when it comes this part. It checks out and is consistent with the combustion diffuser case of a 757. Boeing contracts a lot of people to do their engines, but specifically the engines used on the 757-200 can only be from either of these 2 brands:
Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4
Rolls-Royce RB211-535E4B
OR
Pratt & Whitney PW2037
Pratt & Whitney PW2040
If you look at the second picture which is more detailed you notice the number RB-211. The piece at the crash matches that of the Rolls Royce engine also titled RB211.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/75...pf_200tech.html
According to Russell Pickering of 911review.org this is what he says regarding the wheel hub: "[that photo] is not from the Pentagon. It is from the WTC.”
Finally a piece that tiesto14 left out was this:
The picture can be found here. The ID for the pictures are 4414 and 4415.
As you may or may not know a plane has three main components: The 2 engines with the huge turbines on the wings and the APU (auxiliary power unit) located at the tail of the 757 which contain a smaller turbine inside. The APU serves as a generator or power source to the airplane. Think of it like the alternator in a car.
Anyways “several readers wrote to American Free Press suggesting that the unidentified disc was a piece from the APU mounted in the tail section of a Boeing 757. Honeywell [is the company that] makes the APU used on the 757 aircraft. “AFP contacted Honeywell’s Aerospace division in Phoenix, Ariz., and sent high-resolution photos for their examination. “There’s no way that’s an APU wheel,” an expert at Honeywell told AFP. The expert, who cannot be named, added: “That turbine disc—there’s no way in the world that came out of an APU.”
“If the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757-200 owned by American Airlines, then it would have to be a Rolls Royce engine,” Mark Sullivan, spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, told AFP.
John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had previously told AFP: “It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I’m familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.”
The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the military’s unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grumman’s subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999.
If the government version that an American Airlines 757-200 hit the Pentagon is accurate, then the object in the photo would have to be from a Rolls Royce RB211-535 turbofan engine.
When AFP told Brown that it must be a piece of a Rolls Royce engine, Brown balked and asked who at Pratt & Whitney had provided the information.
Asked again if the disc in the photo is a piece of a Rolls Royce RB211-535, or from the AE 3007 series, Brown said he could not answer.
AFP then asked Brown if he was actually familiar with the parts of an AE 3007H, which is made at the Indiana plant: “No,” Brown said. “I don’t build the engines. I am a spokesman for the company. I speak for the company.”
http://www.americanfreepress.net/10...y_swirling.html
Neither Honeywell nor Rolls Royce claim this piece. With that said we can conclude that this piece as well as the wheel hub is evidence alone to reexamine what really happened on that fateful day when the Pentagon was hit. Why were there different parts? What was in that crate they were carrying away? If only the government would release those tapes then and only then would I have some peace. Darn! |
your point? |
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| seval |
you quite clearly aernt going to admit there is anything suspicious about the attacks, which is fair enough but also quite pompous and arrogant, and their isnt really much point debating this if you fail to accept other peoples views, no says you have to belive them but totally dismising what other people produce is insulting to them.
i have no problem with you personally as i dont know you though i wouldnt really want to if you cant interact with other people and handle what they have to say |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
you quite clearly aernt going to admit there is anything suspicious about the attacks, which is fair enough but also quite pompous and arrogant, and their isnt really much point debating this if you fail to accept other peoples views, no says you have to belive them but totally dismising what other people produce is insulting to them.
i have no problem with you personally as i dont know you though i wouldnt really want to if you cant interact with other people and handle what they have to say |
I tell you what...i will change my mind if any of the following happens:
- If a reasonable number of engineers said explosions must have brought down the towers, that’s what I would believe.
- If ex-CIA or intelligence people were saying there was something fishy about the story, I would listen up.
- If a group of commercial airline pilots said there was something fishy about NORAD on 9/11, I would change my mind. (The airline pilots would know if something was peculiar about NORAD on 9/11. Yet they have remained as silent as the engineers. The silence of the airline pilots is another item helping to hold my skepticism in place.)
- If the seismology indicated explosives, I would think explosives.
- If someone on the inside had confessed or leaked information, I would go with that.
- If any kind of document suggesting a conspiracy were presented, I would sit down & rethink everything. This might be an e-mail, recorded conversation, or printed or handwritten manuscript.
- If even one bonafide journalist were taking the matter seriously I would reconsider.
you talk about all the coincidences but we’re not talking about flaws & imperfections here. According to you, the conspirators planned & brought off a scenario that was blatantly impossible––with fires knocking down steel frame buildings, inexperienced pilots who could fly like aces, hijackers turning up alive, Muslims going to topless bars, etc.
These are not flaws in a clever plan. You’re imagining a scheme so full of absurdities that no conspirators would ever have planned such a thing. |
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| seval |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
I tell you what...i will change my mind if any of the following happens:
- If a reasonable number of engineers said explosions must have brought down the towers, that’s what I would believe.
- If ex-CIA or intelligence people were saying there was something fishy about the story, I would listen up.
- If a group of commercial airline pilots said there was something fishy about NORAD on 9/11, I would change my mind. (The airline pilots would know if something was peculiar about NORAD on 9/11. Yet they have remained as silent as the engineers. The silence of the airline pilots is another item helping to hold my skepticism in place.)
- If the seismology indicated explosives, I would think explosives.
- If someone on the inside had confessed or leaked information, I would go with that.
- If any kind of document suggesting a conspiracy were presented, I would sit down & rethink everything. This might be an e-mail, recorded conversation, or printed or handwritten manuscript.
- If even one bonafide journalist were taking the matter seriously I would reconsider.
you talk about all the coincidences but we’re not talking about flaws & imperfections here. According to you, the conspirators planned & brought off a scenario that was blatantly impossible––with fires knocking down steel frame buildings, inexperienced pilots who could fly like aces, hijackers turning up alive, Muslims going to topless bars, etc.
These are not flaws in a clever plan. You’re imagining a scheme so full of absurdities that no conspirators would ever have planned such a thing. |
well how about this ill shut up if you do lol:) |
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| tiesto14 |
| quote: | Originally posted by seval
well how about this ill shut up if you do lol:) |
deal!:gsmile:
OK i am done argueing about this...lol.
Cya |
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| seval |
| quote: | Originally posted by tiesto14
deal!:gsmile:
OK i am done argueing about this...lol.
Cya |
bye:) |
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| pkcRAISTLIN |
well ive watched most of that 911 video via google now. didnt finish all of it coz i had to go to sleep. firstly, id like to state how fvcking BORING most of it was. oh my god. i wouldve thought a crackpot conspiracy vid to be way more entertaining.
if anything, watching that vid did more to affirm my belief of no conspiracy. the only thing i saw that didnt seem all that benign were the sounds of the pre-collapse explosions. i agree, sounds a bit iffy!
but seriously, the rest of the stuff was clutching at straws (and thats being polite!).
ooooh! flashes near the helicopters. what could they be? if there was a conspiracy, wtf are those flashes meant to be? also loved the counting of the choppers- since none of them are in screen for all that long i wanna know how youre keeping count. haha.
towers explode outwards, not collapsing in on themselves. collapsing from where the damage occurred.
lmao @ pointing out the spot fire that was a few levels up from the primary fire. omg! fires spread??? no!!
lmao x100 at pointing the bird circling. did that have a point that i missed later on in the vid?
anywayz, ill finish it tnite but you conspiracy fellas are seeing what you wanna see. ive tried but like i said, apart from those pre-fall booms i fail to see what you have. |
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