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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 103)
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Add that to those fundamentalist terrorists (Kahane) and their sympathisers trying to incite violence in Gaza by protesting at the Temple Mount and I think it is gonna be pretty obvious where the blame lies when violence does flair up
Question to the Jewish people here...
What are your views on that group who has decided to re-establish the Sanhedrin? Offended? Insulted? Excited at the prospect of meeting your Messiah?! (I would be too if I missed the last one :D ;) ) |
You call the Kahanist "fundamentalist terrorists" so openly and yet they have not commited any acts of terrorism.
But when it comes to Plestinians(hamas, Islamic Jihad and so on), no matter how many busses they blow up, you still do not call them terrorists...
This proves and shows how much baised your opinion is.
Also, you are twisting the truth...those People who tryied to enter the Mount, were not fundamentalists, but simply people who happen to not agree with the evacuation of Gaza and people who by law are allowed access to the site. They were not trying to incite, they simply wanted to have access as everyone else did.
The real problem here was the fact that over night, hundres upon hundreds of Palestinians sneaked into the area. By morning, when Jews wanted to enter...the police did not allow them for fear of a Palestinian attack. That is when all hell broke loose.
I think it is a major problem that the whole left takes these cheap shots at the right...and all kinds of opposition to leftist policies are labeled 'incitment'.
You people need to realize that your views and opinions are not the only ones out there and that the right also has a right to make itself heard.
I believe that Mayer Kahane dared to say what everyone one else thought at the time but dared not say. Never did he incite and provoke killing ofarabs...his whole philosophy was one of protection, protecting each other, jews protecting jews...hell nobody else gave a about the jews...they had to do something and protect themselves.
You people claim to want peace and love and all that bull...you actually think that if Israel pulled to pre 67 all the terror would stop...you are dreaming!!
Before there are any consessions on the Israeli side, I believe that the Palestinians need to demonstrate that they can act like humans. they need to prove that they value and cherish human life in General. They need to swollow the fact that Jew will be living beside them. They need to disarm ALL terrorist factions and the current governemt needs to prove that it can actually run a country. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
You call the Kahanist "fundamentalist terrorists" so openly and yet they have not commited any acts of terrorism.
But when it comes to Plestinians(hamas, Islamic Jihad and so on), no matter how many busses they blow up, you still do not call them terrorists...
This proves and shows how much baised your opinion is.
Also, you are twisting the truth...those People who tryied to enter the Mount, were not fundamentalists, but simply people who happen to not agree with the evacuation of Gaza and people who by law are allowed access to the site. They were not trying to incite, they simply wanted to have access as everyone else did.
The real problem here was the fact that over night, hundres upon hundreds of Palestinians sneaked into the area. By morning, when Jews wanted to enter...the police did not allow them for fear of a Palestinian attack. That is when all hell broke loose.
I think it is a major problem that the whole left takes these cheap shots at the right...and all kinds of opposition to leftist policies are labeled 'incitment'.
You people need to realize that your views and opinions are not the only ones out there and that the right also has a right to make itself heard.
I believe that Mayer Kahane dared to say what everyone one else thought at the time but dared not say. Never did he incite and provoke killing ofarabs...his whole philosophy was one of protection, protecting each other, jews protecting jews...hell nobody else gave a about the jews...they had to do something and protect themselves.
You people claim to want peace and love and all that bull...you actually think that if Israel pulled to pre 67 all the terror would stop...you are dreaming!!
Before there are any consessions on the Israeli side, I believe that the Palestinians need to demonstrate that they can act like humans. they need to prove that they value and cherish human life in General. They need to swollow the fact that Jew will be living beside them. They need to disarm ALL terrorist factions and the current governemt needs to prove that it can actually run a country. |
They only wanted access did they? They didn't go there to see how many police/soldiers they could tie up for when the Gaza evacuation occurs? And as for Kahane not being terrorists (if that is what you are implying) then why are they illegal in America and Israel? Why were they caught loading bombs between an Arab girls school and a hospital in East Jerusalem? Why did Kach affiliated Goldstein murder 29 Palestinians whilst they were praying at Hebron?
Are you Israeli btw cos I notice your canadian flag...? |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
They only wanted access did they? They didn't go there to see how many police/soldiers they could tie up for when the Gaza evacuation occurs? And as for Kahane not being terrorists (if that is what you are implying) then why are they illegal in America and Israel? Why were they caught loading bombs between an Arab girls school and a hospital in East Jerusalem? Why did Kach affiliated Goldstein murder 29 Palestinians whilst they were praying at Hebron?
Are you Israeli btw cos I notice your canadian flag...? |
They are illegal exactly because of the incidents you mentioned...which BTW those who carried wanted to carry it out were nuts and it never wnet though (girls school).
Baruch Goldstein killed those people yes, but not because he was affiliated with Kach...he did it alone.
Again you are quick to label those Jews Terrorists...and yet, they have not committed any acts of terror...but ther Palestinians...aaaahh, the Palestinians have a green card. That is just hipocracy.
You devoted your posting to a bombing that never came off -- against an Arab school by Jewish "extremists" whilst Actual bombings, by the thousands, that did come off, by Arabs against Jewish children, no that is not worth a mention....and furthermore...that is not Terrorism....
No I am not Israeli...I am from Canada....but I did live in Israel for some time while my folks were stationed there with the UN. |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
then why are they illegal in America and Israel? |
All Palestinian terror groups are also Illegalin America and Israel. That seems to be enough for you to use as an argument to sustain your claim that Kach are terrorists.
But whay is it that you seem to justify al the terrorist attrocities commited by te Palestinian Terror organizations. It looks to me like you are holding by a double standard.
If you want to be just you must also condem terror from the other side. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
All Palestinian terror groups are also Illegalin America and Israel. That seems to be enough for you to use as an argument to sustain your claim that Kach are terrorists.
But whay is it that you seem to justify al the terrorist attrocities commited by te Palestinian Terror organizations. It looks to me like you are holding by a double standard.
If you want to be just you must also condem terror from the other side. |
I dont think I have ever said that killing civilians is justified have I? Police and military as state instruments are legitimate targets however. They are fighting a war, Kahane is not. The aims of the Palestinian groups are justifiable but the aims of Kahane are not (note aims, not means)
As for double standards - as you label the Palestinian (guerilla) groups as terrorists, do you also label the state of Israel as terrorist? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
No I am not Israeli...I am from Canada....but I did live in Israel for some time while my folks were stationed there with the UN. |
Ah so your like the Irish Americans collecting money for the IRA? The further away people are from a conflict that affects them (symbolically or ethnically etc) tend to hold more radical views because they are not as affected by the results of those views. It is fine for you to sit there in Canada 1000s of miles from Israel and come out with the stuff you do but you dont have to live with the consequences of opinions like your own do you? |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I dont think I have ever said that killing civilians is justified have I? Police and military as state instruments are legitimate targets however. They are fighting a war, Kahane is not. The aims of the Palestinian groups are justifiable but the aims of Kahane are not (note aims, not means)
As for double standards - as you label the Palestinian (guerilla) groups as terrorists, do you also label the state of Israel as terrorist? |
You would be right if these Palestinian fighters were uniformed fighters attacking uniformed personnel on the Israeli side. This is how a war works. I this case however, we have Israeli army targetting Palestinian Militia and this Militia targetting Israeli civilians. with that in mind it is easy to understand the desperation of the Israelis and their will to fight for survival. The army has a duty to protect its citizens.
Bu the fact remains that these Palestinian terrorists do not follow the leadership of the PA, and that they actively target woman and children (civilians).
There is no reason to Label Israel terrorist. Israel is fighting a savage war against terrorism. While doing so, Israel goes to extremes trying to prevent civilian casualities. As you are well aware, terrorists hide amongst the population,. which makes the job even harder.
Considering the current situation, and applying it to any other country, civilian casualities would have been at least 10 times worst.
Israel as a democracy, cherishes and values life...Arab or Jewish. This is much more then can be said about the Palestinian side. Incitment is rampant and the hate for jews is something taught at school from a young age. They are raising a nation of terrorists and all you can do is criticize Israel for defending its citizens.
You see...I for one, believe that if the Palestinians took a totally different approach....a peacefull one, things would be quite different. Look at what happened with Syria...that is the true power of the people's voice....not terror.
When one resorts to killing inocent civilians to achieve a goal, he has lost all credibility in my book.
Israel with all its might could level the territoris with one swift move...
After all the rockets yesterday and no retaliation, I think it is fair to say that Isral is more then ready and willing to give peace a try...(again). You cannot say the same about the Palestinians. |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Ah so your like the Irish Americans collecting money for the IRA? The further away people are from a conflict that affects them (symbolically or ethnically etc) tend to hold more radical views because they are not as affected by the results of those views. It is fine for you to sit there in Canada 1000s of miles from Israel and come out with the stuff you do but you dont have to live with the consequences of opinions like your own do you? |
There you go again labeling people because they don't hold your views....
I lived in Israel for 4 years...I just recently returned here to Canada...I actually plan to move there in about 1 year...so I will and do live with the "consequences " of my opinions.
And anyways, who are you to talk??
Why are you so self rightous?? why are my opinions so "radical" and yours not??
In your view, it is acceptable...sorry, excusable for a man to strap a bomb to his waste and blow up a club because he is a "freedom fighter"...that seems pretty damn radical.
Look, I see one major problem with this discussion. While everybody loves to post their views and opinions, nobody is ready to accept the others. People are always looking for ways to discredit ones views (such as you just did with me).
Instead, why can't you respect it and argumentate against it??
this attitude of attacking me personally because of something I wrote is the attitude of a cornered dog who starts to bite.
I have no problem respecting your views, this is why I reply and give you mine...I expect nothing but the same from you. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
There you go again labeling people because they don't hold your views....
I lived in Israel for 4 years...I just recently returned here to Canada...I actually plan to move there in about 1 year...so I will and do live with the "consequences " of my opinions.
And anyways, who are you to talk??
Why are you so self rightous?? why are my opinions so "radical" and yours not??
In your view, it is acceptable...sorry, excusable for a man to strap a bomb to his waste and blow up a club because he is a "freedom fighter"...that seems pretty damn radical.
Look, I see one major problem with this discussion. While everybody loves to post their views and opinions, nobody is ready to accept the others. People are always looking for ways to discredit ones views (such as you just did with me).
Instead, why can't you respect it and argumentate against it??
this attitude of attacking me personally because of something I wrote is the attitude of a cornered dog who starts to bite.
I have no problem respecting your views, this is why I reply and give you mine...I expect nothing but the same from you. |
I'm sorry but I think your stumbling over yourself there. I have never said it is acceptable or excusable for someone to suicide bomb civilians so in your next post you can appologise for suggesting such. And I am not attacking you personally, I just pointed out that it is a phenomena that the further away you are from the conflict the more likely you are to have radical views on the matter. You seemed to fit that criteria thats all. Maybe you can demonstrate me wrong (and prove your own points about accepting other views apart from your own!) by being a little less biased in your arguments? |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
You would be right if these Palestinian fighters were uniformed fighters attacking uniformed personnel on the Israeli side. This is how a war works. I this case however, we have Israeli army targetting Palestinian Militia and this Militia targetting Israeli civilians. with that in mind it is easy to understand the desperation of the Israelis and their will to fight for survival. The army has a duty to protect its citizens. |
Your confusing "war" with "complete stupidity"!! Why on earth would Palestinian militants identify themselves as such ready for the IDF to pick every one of em off!? If your gonna come up with a plan for a war your not gonna pick one that leads to certain defeat are you? Now you can just accept that and stop with your silly ideas (in which you are merely calling them cowards, yet you totally disregard intelligence)
| quote: | | Bu the fact remains that these Palestinian terrorists do not follow the leadership of the PA, and that they actively target woman and children (civilians). |
Are men not civilians too?! Anyway, yes they do target civilians which as I have said (and which you are about to write an appology for) that this is not justified. It should be pointed out that the military and police are also targeted which is justified in a war (and yes, it is a war, there is a foreign army in their country for s sake how much more of a war do you want?!)
| quote: | | There is no reason to Label Israel terrorist. Israel is fighting a savage war against terrorism. While doing so, Israel goes to extremes trying to prevent civilian casualities. As you are well aware, terrorists hide amongst the population,. which makes the job even harder. |
Nice try. Palestinian civilians have been targeted deliberately by the IDF (see Jenin etc and no bull about Jenin if 9 people killed at the Olympics can be described as a massacre then 50 in a refugee camp can if it was only 50) Also, the homes of Palestinians are routinely demolished either as collective punishment or to make way for roads/military/etc - and that is terrorism
| quote: | Considering the current situation, and applying it to any other country, civilian casualities would have been at least 10 times worst.
Israel as a democracy, cherishes and values life...Arab or Jewish. This is much more then can be said about the Palestinian side. Incitment is rampant and the hate for jews is something taught at school from a young age. They are raising a nation of terrorists and all you can do is criticize Israel for defending its citizens. |
Israel is not defending its citizens! How the can you say that?! If it were defending its citizens why are most of the army out protecting the settlements that should not even be there in the first place?! Why are they still building settlements? Why are they still occupying the Arab's land? If Israel is "defending it's citizens" dont you think they should start by improving the security situation? IE Not doing everything they can to piss the Palestinians off? Why aren't you calling for an end to the occupation if you care so much about the Israelis? Why are you not calling for not only an end to settlement building but a complete evacuation of every single Jewish settlement in Arab territory?
| quote: | | You see...I for one, believe that if the Palestinians took a totally different approach....a peacefull one, things would be quite different. Look at what happened with Syria...that is the true power of the people's voice....not terror. |
What happened in Syria? And I also think that they could take a peaceful approach but what good would that do? Would having a poncy protest get the Israeli army out of Palestinian territory? Would a poncy protest stop the settlements? Would a poncy protest stop Israel stealing land with the fence? Probably not eh?
| quote: | | When one resorts to killing inocent civilians to achieve a goal, he has lost all credibility in my book. |
Has Israel ever intentionally killed innocent civilians? (And if you think you can squirm out of that one I suggest you do a google before answering cos if you dont think there are 1000s of examples where this has happened then you are in complete denial)
| quote: | Israel with all its might could level the territoris with one swift move...
After all the rockets yesterday and no retaliation, I think it is fair to say that Isral is more then ready and willing to give peace a try...(again). You cannot say the same about the Palestinians. |
This is the best one yet!! I think I might frame this quote and hang it on my wall its so funny!! Are you that blind you failed to read that those rockets WERE the retaliation?!?!! Those rockets were fired because ISRAEL KILLED THREE UNARMED PALESTINIANS!!! So no need for retaliation eh? Cos it was Israel's fault in the first place!! (Next your gonna tell me they were smugglers so I ask you - so what? Do you think unarmed people who may have committed a crime should be shot without trial? So much for democracy!)
By the way, what do you think bout that group who have formed the Sanhedrin? Do you support them like you support Kahane? |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I'm sorry but I think your stumbling over yourself there. I have never said it is acceptable or excusable for someone to suicide bomb civilians so in your next post you can appologise for suggesting such. And I am not attacking you personally, I just pointed out that it is a phenomena that the further away you are from the conflict the more likely you are to have radical views on the matter. You seemed to fit that criteria thats all. Maybe you can demonstrate me wrong (and prove your own points about accepting other views apart from your own!) by being a little less biased in your arguments? |
I wont appologise because I have seen posts where you deffened acts of terros passing them of as what is "normal" given the situation.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley Israel, ing bar stewards, they not only do not deserve to exist they deserve to burn in hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Well I thought I'd take this oppertunity to get in there first... |
I don't think my arguments are baised, I just happen to be a right wing conservative...my views and opinions reflect what I am and what I believe in.
And I do accept your opinions, although I don't agree with them. This is why I reply and we go on and on...this is what makes debateing so great! |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
I wont appologise because I have seen posts where you deffened acts of terros passing them of as what is "normal" given the situation. |
In that case I want those quotes of mine or an appology... |
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