|
The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 23)
|
View this Thread in Original format
| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
technically it wasn't an occupation first because the palestinians never had their own country to begin with. |
So tibet isnt occupied becuase they didnt have a country?:rolleyes: |
|
|
| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
technically it wasn't an occupation first because the palestinians never had their own country to begin with. |
Palestine was once a British colony.
(emphasis added):
| quote: | Originally posted by Balfour Declaration 1917 online at yale dot edu
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour
|
Notice how it doesn't state that it will replace Palestine
| quote: | Originally posted by British Empire blamed for modern conflicts online at bbc dot co dot uk
Friday, 15 November, 2002, 17:11 GMT
British Empire blamed for modern conflicts
The UK Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, has blamed Britain's imperial past for many of the modern political problems, including the Arab-Israeli conflict and the Kashmir dispute.
"A lot of the problems we are having to deal with now - I have to deal with now - are a consequence of our colonial past," he said.
In an interview with a British magazine, the New Statesman, Mr Straw spoke of quite serious mistakes made, especially during the last decades of the empire.
He said the Balfour Declaration of 1917 - in which Britain pledged support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine - and the contradictory assurances given to Palestinians, were not entirely honourable.
"The Balfour declaration and the contradictory assurances which were being given to Palestinians in private at the same time as they were being given to the Israelis - again, an interesting history for us, but not an honourable one," he said.
Mr Straw acknowledged "some quite serious mistakes" in India and Pakistan, jewels of the British empire before their 1947 independence, as well as Britain's "less than glorious role" in Afghanistan.
'Odd' borders
Mr Straw blamed many territorial disputes on the illogical borders created by colonial powers.
He mentioned Iraq, the region which was governed by Britain under the mandate of the League of Nations after the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I.
"The odd lines for Iraq's borders were drawn by Brits," he said.
And he said the British Government had been complacent about Kashmir at the time of Indian independence, when it quickly became the most contentious issue between India and Pakistan.
'Sensible statement'
This is not the first time Mr Straw has made controversial remarks about British history.
In the past he has blamed the English of oppressing the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh.
Members of the main opposition Conservative Party accused Mr Straw of undermining British foreign policy, particularly in Zimbabwe, where President Robert Mugabe has justified his campaign against white farmers as a way of righting the wrongs of colonialism.
But Downing Street said Mr Straw's remarks were "a sensible statement of history".
Unusual
BBC's Diplomatic correspondent Barnaby Mason says that Mr Straw's critical remarks about British colonialism would be unsurprising coming from virtually anyone else.
Such views have been commonplace across the world and among left-wingers in Britain.
Our correspondent said 30 years ago, Mr Straw used to be an outspoken left winger himself. |
|
|
|
| BadBadNeil |
Yes we know it was a british colony after the Ottoman empire, however it was never formed into a country to begin with like the rest of the middle east, partly because of the jewish population who already settled there and the british who wanted to partition the land. Palestine has always been a location of the map, but not necessarily a place with borders at any point in history. The closest is the land of Philitia which is one of the origins of the palestinian people which dated to the same time in which Israel first existed around 1000BC. Here is a quote regarding the history, as well as a few maps througout history to demonstrate my point.
| quote: |
Palestine was among the several former Ottoman Arab territories which were placed under the administration of Great Britain under the Mandates System adopted by the League of Nations pursuant to the League's Covenant (Article 22) .
All but one of these Mandated Territories became fully independent States, as anticipated. The exception was Palestine where, instead of being limited to "the rendering of administrative assistance and advice" the Mandate had as a primary objective the implementation of the "Balfour Declaration" issued by the British Government in 1917, expressing support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".
During the years of the Palestine Mandate, from 1922 to 1947, large-scale Jewish immigration from abroad, mainly from Eastern Europe took place, the numbers swelling in the 1930s with the notorious Nazi persecution of Jewish populations. Palestinian demands for independence and resistance to Jewish immigration led to a rebellion in 1937, followed by continuing terrorism and violence from both sides during and immediately after World War II. Great Britain tried to implement various formulas to bring independence to a land ravaged by violence. In 1947, Great Britain in frustration turned the problem over to the United Nations.
|
Israel/Canaan during the reign of King David, 1000B.C
Maps from Penguin Atlas of history.
Israel split into Judea and Israel around 0
Fall of Jerusalem in 70AD and most were exiled under the Roman empire. No maps needed because everything was roman.
Christian Palestine fell first to the Persians, in 614. It was reconquered briefly in 629 by Heraclius. However, with the rise of Islam, the Middle East, and with it Palestine - Israel - Canaan - was conquered by Arabs. Jerusalem fell in 640. The Jews were willing allies of the Arabs, as they had been of the Persians. The Land was divided into a Southern Jund (district) of Filastin with a capital in Al-Lud (later in Ramleh), and a northern Jund of Al Urdunn with its capital in Tabariyeh (Tiberius).
Under the crusades
After Salah-e-din's empire took hold.
Finally how it was in turkish control in the ottoman empire before the british had it. Dated 1914
 |
|
|
| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Palestine was once a British colony. |
Notice I said "was once" and not "always been". I initially was going to put a brief landlord history on Palestine but chose not to since the quoted articles are more in tune to the current affairs of that area.
With the rise of Zionism and then Nazism in pre-WWII, was there an interest for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".
With all technicalities on who "owns" the area it would most certainly go to God (YHWH, Elohim, etc) and therefore ownership of the rest of planet Earth.
But since it is a "holy land" to many, the assumption is that we all read The Bible in regards to Israel/Palestine. And with the mandates by God to read his book there are still those who misinterpret and lean on a Zionist or some other racist agenda. |
|
|
| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Notice I said "was once" and not "always been". I initially was going to put a brief landlord history on Palestine but chose not to since the quoted articles are more in tune to the current affairs of that area.
With the rise of Zionism and then Nazism in pre-WWII, was there an interest for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people".
With all technicalities on who "owns" the area it would most certainly go to God (YHWH, Elohim, etc) and therefore ownership of the rest of planet Earth.
But since it is a "holy land" to many, the assumption is that we all read The Bible in regards to Israel/Palestine. And with the mandates by God to read his book there are still those who misinterpret and lean on a Zionist or some other racist agenda. |
You do realize Zionism was and is a secular purely political movement that doesn't justify anything with God and the bible. |
|
|
| Palestinian |
| Just because Palestine isn't a state, it doesn't mean that it's exempt from occupied status. |
|
|
| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
You do realize Zionism was and is a secular purely political movement that doesn't justify anything with God and the bible. |
I do.
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
And with the mandates by God to read his book there are still those who misinterpret and lean on a Zionist or some other racist agenda. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Theodor Herzl in The Jewish State
We are again being forced into finance, now it is the stock exchange, by being kept out of other branches of economic activity. Being on the stock exchange, we are consequently exposed afresh to contempt. At the same time we continue to produce an abundance of mediocre intellects who find no outlet, and this endangers our social position as much as does our increasing wealth. Educated Jews without means are now rapidly becoming Socialists. Hence we are certain to suffer very severely in the struggle between classes, because we stand in the most exposed position in the camps of both Socialists and capitalists. |
|
|
|
| ogvh5150 |
| Real smart those guys would even do that. They might as well check for a bullet in the chamber of a pistol with the safety off. |
|
|
| Electrotek |
Let me give you my position on this issue, from a Muslim:
I am neither for the Palestinians or against them. I am for the innocent, the poor, the oppressed and the persecuted. And I'm afraid that it is not only Israel which is persecuting the Palestinian people. The Palestinians have themselves to blame aswell. Why you may ask?
Suicide bombers in the name of Allah (But Allah has condemned surprise attacks, Allah has condemned the killing of women and children, Allah has condemned the killing of the innocent, Allah has condemned the destruction of houses and crops).
And I'm afraid Palestinians are responsible for committing all these crimes.
Furthermore, when peace is offered, as a Muslim, we have no choice but to ACCEPT that peace treaty. Muslims are not about war, but about peace and equality.
The Palestinians have a lot to answer in the eyes of Allah.
Now please note that I am not condemning anyone as a Palestinian, but in general what has been happening.
The Israelis have as much blame as the Palestinians. They provoke the Palestinians into attacking them, and honestly the Palestinians have to be so thick in the head.
Israel has the superior technology and war machine. Israel has foreign backing. Every attack that the Palestinians commit plays into the hands of the Israelis.
They need to raise their white flags, and yell out "peace!". Then, certainly so, the international community will not stand for a slaughter of people who will not fight.
Or better yet, just arm both the orthodox Jews and the orthodox Muslims and let them slaughter each other. They won't satisfy their lust for violence until they makes orphans out of their kids. |
|
|
| dj_ilan_yosef |
And this is cruelty because.... they beat him? the humiliated him? how =- by making him play a violin, which he says he plays - while they give him a 2-3 minute backround check.
as someone who has been at these roadblocks, i know if the soilders actually believed him to be carrying explosives in the violin they would have kept him MUCH farther away from the checkpoint. they would have NEVER as him to test a potentialy terminal instrument in from of them.
perhaps the soldiers we're trying to lighten up the atmosphere by asking him to play a peice. this could have very well been a matter of the soldier being sensitive to the arabs, as the israeli army has commited to doing through a programme initiative they've started.
by the way... if you heard a grown man of any race play a violin poorly - i'm sure you'd laugh just as hard as those soldiers did.
These soldiers are ordinary men and women ... they DIDN'T "CHOOSE" to play "ROADBLOCK" with these people.... they have been forced to by the terrorist mother******s who have killed scores of Israelis passing such geographical points to accomplish their missions.
I hate the fact that your goal here is to dehumanize the image of the israeli military.
do some research... and not only from your anti-semetic, anti-israel european and muslim sources... but perhaps some from the other side of the conflict. you'll find tons of points of which the israeli army goes out of its way to fight a war served to her by blood-thirsty neighbours.
And don't bother correcting me with regards to which side europe is on. their political agenda has been open book for years now. i hate to generalize here as there are many europeans who hate the direction in which their countries are heading - again. |
|
|
|
|
