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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 123)
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| gmoney |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
When you first started complaining about the Jews, you did it in this thread which made me believe that you were talking about Israel and Palestine. Now it transpires your talking about Jews in america. Well Jew does not = Israeli. So either comment on Israel/Palestine or start a new thread if you have a problem with the Jews in America |
I hate to admit it but you have a good point here Smiley. Ok, here is my view on this issue. For one thing, I have much more respect for Israeili's then people I am complaining about as Israeli's are actually somewhat badass.
On the other hand, If I was a muslim living in Isreal I would be pissed off for the following reason, which I am going to present to you as an analogy:I live in Massachusetts, in the U.S. Now 300 years ago the native-americans lived here. It would seriously piss me off if the state of Massachusetts was suddenly turned into a native-american state because we felt bad for them (as Isreal was created after world war II) and I was stuck here and the native-americans had full control of the government, the police, the military. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmoney
I hate to admit it but you have a good point here Smiley. Ok, here is my view on this issue. For one thing, I have much more respect for Israeili's then people I am complaining about as Israeli's are actually somewhat badass. |
Not sure I quite follow you there?
| quote: | | On the other hand, If I was a muslim living in Isreal I would be pissed off for the following reason, which I am going to present to you as an analogy:I live in Massachusetts, in the U.S. Now 300 years ago the native-americans lived here. It would seriously piss me off if the state of Massachusetts was suddenly turned into a native-american state because we felt bad for them (as Isreal was created after world war II) and I was stuck here and the native-americans had full control of the government, the police, the military. |
Well for a start Palestinians = Muslims and Christians, not just Muslims. And its more accurate to call them all Arabs as many are secular aethiests (if you want a description of the people as a whole). And I think your a little off when you talk about the people who are pissed off. Altho I'm sure Israeli Arabs have a lot of sympathy for the Arabs under occupation, it is those under occupation, not the Israeli Arabs who are pissed off (as it is fair to say they are better off in Israel, altho high levels of discrimination do mean they aren't gonna be happy as larry about it) |
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| tamk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Thats funny cos I could have sworn you said in the sentence before that that the Bosnian one was worse than the Jewish one... |
dude you dont't read other peoples posts you just have fun replying. yes in my opinion the way it was carried out was pretty bad but i wouldnt impose it on others by saying it WAS the absolute worse, like you and that other dude were doing about the holocast. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by tamk
dude you dont't read other peoples posts you just have fun replying. yes in my opinion the way it was carried out was pretty bad but i wouldnt impose it on others by saying it WAS the absolute worse, like you and that other dude were doing about the holocast. |
So you can say one was worse in your opinion but when somebody else says one was worse in their opinions they are imposing it on you? |
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| tamk |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
So you can say one was worse in your opinion but when somebody else says one was worse in their opinions they are imposing it on you? |
this is silly, im not taking part in this anymore. my argument wasnt that you are imposing , it was that the holcaust was'nt the ABSOLUTE worst gencoside of its kind. its not a scared cow its debateable. thats all i was saying. |
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| gmoney |
| I think you are missing the point Smiley. What I am trying to say is that Isreal shouldn't have been created in the first place. Giving the jews their own country because we felt bad for them bothers me. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmoney
I think you are missing the point Smiley. What I am trying to say is that Isreal shouldn't have been created in the first place. Giving the jews their own country because we felt bad for them bothers me. |
Well your history of Israel is a little suspect. The decision to separate Mandate Palestine was taken in 1917 (Balfour Declaration) which obviously had nothing to do with the Holocaust (or that "we felt sorry for them") The events of WW2 certainly created a lot of support for the creation of a Jewish homeland, but those events had already been put into motion well before WW2. The reason Israel was created was because the British could not handle the situation in Palestine. The British army suffered Jewish terrorism and found it extremely difficult to deal with the clashes between Jews and Arabs that had been taking place since the 1920s. Britain's inability to deal with the situation was the reason the partition of Palestine took place. I completely agree that maybe partition was the wrong course of action but you seem to have the wrong idea about why Israel was created
(Not wanting to blow my own trumpet or anything (!) but I have written an essay that gives an overview of the history of Palestinian terrorism and the Israel-Arab conflict if you would like to read it?) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by tamk
this is silly, im not taking part in this anymore. my argument wasnt that you are imposing , it was that the holcaust was'nt the ABSOLUTE worst gencoside of its kind. its not a scared cow its debateable. thats all i was saying. |
All I am doing is airing my opinion. And my opinion is that the Holocaust was the worst. I'm not attempting to impose that view or say it is correct and you should agree, not at all. That's my opinion |
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| gmoney |
| And one last thing Smiley. 80% of the reason as to why 9/11 happened was because the U.S. supports Israel. I had a friend in the towers. And if you know so much you will also know that the jews in the U.S. make up 0.3% of the military. So guess what, not only did many innocent people who had nothing to do with the conflict in the middle east lose their lives in 9/11, more American soldiers died when they got sent over there to try to solve the problem that was caused by the jews in Israel. |
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| TheNobleEu |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well your history of Israel is a little suspect. The decision to separate Mandate Palestine was taken in 1917 (Balfour Declaration) |
Hmm.
| quote: |
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
...which obviously had nothing to do with the Holocaust (or that "we felt sorry for them") |
Former accurate, latter inaccurate.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The events of WW2 certainly created a lot of support for the creation of a Jewish homeland, but those events had already been put into motion well before WW2. |
Debatable. Talking and actually doing are very different things, especially in British politics.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
The reason Israel was created was because the British could not handle the situation in Palestine. The British army suffered Jewish terrorism and found it extremely difficult to deal with the clashes between Jews and Arabs that had been taking place since the 1920s. Britain's inability to deal with the situation was the reason the partition of Palestine took place. I completely agree that maybe partition was the wrong course of action but you seem to have the wrong idea about why Israel was created... |
This is very simplistic, and is largely hindsight. It ignores the strategic situation in Mesopotamia and the Middle East in the World Wars.
I wonder if you essay discussed the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence at length?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
(Not wanting to blow my own trumpet or anything (!) but I have written an essay that gives an overview of the history of Palestinian terrorism and the Israel-Arab conflict if you would like to read it?) |
Say what? You wrote around 12 volumes? :D
Cheers,
-Noble |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmoney
And one last thing Smiley. 80% of the reason as to why 9/11 happened was because the U.S. supports Israel. I had a friend in the towers. And if you know so much you will also know that the jews in the U.S. make up 0.3% of the military. So guess what, not only did many innocent people who had nothing to do with the conflict in the middle east lose their lives in 9/11, more American soldiers died when they got sent over there to try to solve the problem that was caused by the jews in Israel. |
Well it is true that one reason America was attacked was because of the Middle East Peace Process but I wouldn't say it was the main reason (as you allure to by saying it was 80% of the reason). If this attack had been carried out by one of the PLO factions or Hamas (or maybe even Hizballah) then obviously the Palestinian cause would be THE reason America was attacked. However, none of the Palestinian groups want anything to do with al-Qaida (and I think they all condemned the attacks) The main reason for me is a little closer to home for al-Qaida and that is related to Saudi Arabia. Bin Laden was extremely pissed off when the Saudi royal family rejected bin Laden's offer of help to defend against Iraq (first Gulf War) and instead chose American help (bin Laden's forces would be no match for Saddam's) Add to that the fact that during and following the Gulf War American military bases were established (and maintained to the present day) in Saudi Arabia, the location of the holiest sites in Islam (which was seen as a blasphemy by bin Laden et al) Palestine was of course an additional factor for the decision to attack America. Another reason to attack America was for the benefits al-Qaida would recieve for the predictable American reaction. America would attack Muslim countries which is the perfect publicity stunt to show that al-Qaida is right, that America is the enemy of Islam, and that concerned Muslims should join with al-Qaida, which would swell their ranks making their actual aim ('destroying' America has never been and never will be the aim of al-Qaida) of toppling Middle Eastern governments and replacing them with Islamic theocracies under Sharia Law.
I do think Palestine is a key factor in anti-Americanism and therefore a key factor in the war on terror. I dont think it neccessarily had too much of an effect on al-Qaida's decision to attack America but it certainly generates support for their 'cause'. Palestine is a rallying factor for everything Arab and Islamic. Oppressive Middle Eastern regimes deflect criticism of themselves by using Israel as the 'real enemy' and as I just said, Islamists use it to generate support against the West and Western ideals. So resolution of the Palestinian conflict by America (the only actor who really has the power to resolve the Peace Process) is vital for the war on terror as it will show that maybe America isn't an enemy of Islam and can actually help Arabs (who are in need of it)
Whether America will put any effort into resolving the Palestinian problem is another question! And then you can look to the domestic situation in America for reasons why this might not happen (but currently domestic support for Israel is not just confined to Jews but also to the far larger Christian Right and the Evangelicals) |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by TheNobleEu
Debatable. Talking and actually doing are very different things, especially in British politics. |
The events I was refering to were the clashes that broke out in the 1920s. These clashes between the Jewish inhabitants and Arab inhabitants were over land that each side considered desirable for a future state. This was due to (in part) both side's interpretation of the Balfour Declaration that seemed to promise both sides a state. So you can say Israel came about due to these events and had the Holocaust not happened we most likely would still have seen an Israel created as that had been an aim of the Zionists for more than half a century before WW2 occured and they had began fighting for that aim for a quarter of a century before WW2 occured.
| quote: | This is very simplistic, and is largely hindsight. It ignores the strategic situation in Mesopotamia and the Middle East in the World Wars.
I wonder if you essay discussed the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence at length? |
I had but had to delete it all! My essay was only 6,000 words long and was about the history of Palestinian terrorism, so the origins of the conflict and Israel were confined to the first short chapter. I have written about it in an other essay about Arab Nationalism (but not in depth) |
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