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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 141)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
There population doubled and tripled when the new wave of Jews came in from 1890s - 1940s. This is not natrual growth, this is because Arabs from surronding areas such as Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon came due to the new growth fueled by Jewish brains and education.
Also notable there was always a sizeable Jewish population in Palestine dating back thousands of years. You can not say the same about the Palestinians, which only existed as an ethnic group since the 1960s.
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What are you talking about? The West Bank/Gaza/Israel were not uninhabited lands before Jewish immigration. The Arabs Muslims, Christians, and Jews have been there for ages. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
Our of all arguments, yours seems to be the stupidest I've heard to date. You say: The longer a population is residing in a certain area, the more restrictive their immigration policy can be? The more rights they have? Funny. A little community of Jews has been living in 'Palestine' thoughout 3000 years. Or is it now the size that also plays a role?
How many people should live for how many years in a certain country for them to be allowed to be selective towards immigrants? |
That not an argument I was trying to make. I was pointing out your poor analogy of two completely different situations. And I never denied the existance of a small Jewish minority in what is now know as Israel/West Bank/ Gaza for 3000 yrs. The European/American/and other immigrant Jews are not natives to the region.
EDIT: So the huge majority of Jews currently in the region are not natives, they're immigrants. I wasn't talking about the small number of native Jews. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | | Like the U.S.A. and like Australia, Israel is an immigrant society. By virtue of its self-definition as a state of and for the Jewish people, it is, furthermore, a society where unconditional immigration is a comprehensive privilege for Jews, while it is both practically and (to date) theoretically impossible for others |
http://construct.haifa.ac.il/~almog...al%20Pokicy.htm
Nope haven't read it all and no idea where its from but it appears to be Haifa University |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
What are you talking about? The West Bank/Gaza/Israel were not uninhabited lands before Jewish immigration. The Arabs Muslims, Christians, and Jews have been there for ages. |
What I am talking about is that the lands of the West Bank/Gaza/Israel were sparesly inhabited before the Jews came in in the 1890s.
Is it so hard to comprehend that historically Gaza did not have the denses population in the world?
Under the British mandated Palestinian immigration doubled. Most Palestinians are not 'native' Palestinians under the definition you would assume, most are, similarly to Jews only 2nd or 3rd generation 'natives'. |
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| TranceGiant |
you might wanna read further
| quote: | Foreign workers: The Ministry of Interior issues work permits for the foreign workers who have entered the country legally. They are not allowed, to bring in their families, however. Some workers come as tourists and stay on without permits. If the workers do have children with them, the residence of the latter is considered illegal in any case. Since the foreign workers are considered temporary aliens, who are not eligible for any social services there is no need to consider them in the administration of laws of education. Still, they are entitled to the basic services granted to them by the Law of Free Compulsory Education of 1949. In the city of Tel Aviv, where the largest population of foreign workers lives, almost all the children attend one primary school. Tel Aviv is the only municipality that recognizes that this population may need active help. They employ a full-time social worker, who is officially in charge of the issues related to foreign workers. For the entire group, there is no official provision of social services, and they enjoy the help of only a few volunteer organizations, such as Doctors without Borders, Help for the Worker, and so on.
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| Shakka |
Alright, I admit that I am no professor of the last 25 centuries of rule in Israel/Palestine/Gaza/The West Bank, etc. So here is an article from todays' Times. Please feel free to criticize it or laud it as you see fit. Cheers.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/o....html?th&emc=th
| quote: | Palestinians on the Right Side of History
By BENNY MORRIS
Published: August 24, 2005
Rockville, Md.
THERE is, from the historian's perch, something fitting about the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip. I am not speaking about the fact that this appallingly overcrowded area has 1.3 million Arabs who need every inch of its 140 square miles to even begin to imagine a better life and who regard their former Jewish occupiers as nothing more than robbers.
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I mean instead that for the greater part of ancient history - that past in which the Jewish people anchor their claim to Israel - the Gaza Strip was not part of the Jewish state. The embattled settlers may have screamed last week that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was expelling Jews from part of Eretz Yisrael, "the land of Israel." And the first Hebrew, the patriarch Abraham, may have understood God, at least on paper (or papyrus), to have included this narrow strip of territory in his promised domain.
But in reality, the Gaza Strip and the coastal towns to its north, for most of the years between, say, 1250 B.C. and 135 A.D. - the era in which the Jews lived in and often ruled the land of Israel - eluded firm Israelite or Judean control and, indeed, Jewish habitation. It is not even clear that the great Hebrew kings David and Solomon, under whom the kingdom reached its vastest expanse, ever directly controlled the Gaza area.
The Hebrew tribes that crossed the Jordan River and pushed into the Holy Land in the 13th and 12th centuries B.C. settled and established their rule along its hilly central spine, between Ishtamua (present-day Samua), Hebron and Shechem (present-day Nablus). This stretch, with Jerusalem at its center, comprises the area that the Bible and many Israelis now refer to as Judea and Samaria, and the rest of the world calls the West Bank. This is the historical heartland of the Jewish people - and of course today it is largely populated by Arabs, who claim it as their own and are demanding that Israel evacuate it.
By contrast, the coastal strip to the west, from Rafah north through Gaza to Caesarea, was the land of the strangers, the Gentiles. Paradoxically, Tel Aviv, that ultimate Israeli-Jewish city, serves as the hub of this coastline today, a city of the plain par excellence.
Thus in a spiritual sense, history served up a terrible irony at the start of the Zionist enterprise. Wishing to return to Shiloh and Bethel, Jerusalem and Hebron, the Jews immigrating to Palestine found its hilly core heavily populated by Arabs. So the early settlers put down roots in the thinly populated coastal plain and interior lowlands (the Jezreel and Jordan Valleys), where land was available and relatively cheap.
Then, in the first Arab-Israeli war in 1948, the Jews established their state in those same lowlands, while Judea and Samaria were occupied by the Jordanian Army, which resisted Israeli takeover. Thus history was reversed: the reborn Jewish state sprang up precisely in those areas that millenniums earlier had been the domain of the Gentiles.
The Gaza Strip was the exception. It was the only part of the old Gentile coastal plain that was saved for the Arabs, by the Egyptian Army. It changed hands, of course, in 1967 (along with the West Bank); but with the Israeli withdrawal, it will regain a long tradition of evading Jewish control.
In antiquity, Gaza was part of Biblical Pleshet or Philistia - the domain of the Philistines, a non-Semitic "sea people" hailing from the Greek isles who probably invaded and settled along the coast in the 12th century B.C. (more or less simultaneous with the arrival in the Holy Land of the Hebrews from the east).
From their towns of Gaza, Ashkelon and Jaffa, the Philistines controlled the coastal plain from 1150 B.C. to 586 B.C., and intermittently challenged Jewish rule over the inland hill country. It was in these forays eastward that the Philistines lost their champion, Goliath, to young David's pebble and, in turn, slew King Saul and his son Jonathan on Mount Gilboa, displaying their heads on the walls of Beit Shean, in the Jordan Valley.
Philistia was conquered (along with Judea) by the Babylonians in 586 B.C. and the Philistines were exiled and vanished from history. In the second century A.D., after having quashed a Jewish revolt, the Roman rulers renamed the land of Israel - in order to de-Judaize it - Palestina (a derivative of Philistia). They thus gave the Arabs, who were to arrive on the scene five centuries later, the name they were to adopt. In this nominal sense, there is justice in the Palestinian Arabs now gaining possession of ancient Philistia.
Of course, these historical details are of little interest to the Islamic fundamentalists, who, by most accounts, enjoy majority support in the Gaza Strip. For them, history begins with the conquests of Muhammad and his caliphs in the seventh century. According to Koranic law, all the land they conquered (including not only today's Palestine but also Spain and Portugal) became inalienable Islamic territory. Or as Mahmoud Zahar, a Hamas leader, said recently, the fundamentalists seek to control not just the Gaza Strip and the West Bank; as he put it, "All of Palestine is our land."
Indeed, probably most Arabs would like to "de-Judaize" all of Palestine, and many, no doubt, see the Gaza evacuation as a first step. But that remains a distant dream. Gaza may be reverting to "Gentile" rule, but whether the West Bank - in which lie the true historical roots of the Jewish people - will do so also is another, and far more painful, question.
Benny Morris, the author of "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited," is a professor of history at Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba, Israel. |
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| Yoepus |
This does not contradict anything I have mentioned earlier, not are Israelis policies like Austrilias and the USA's racist. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by TranceGiant
you might wanna read further |
Why it just backs up what I'm saying - foreign workers, unless Jewish, are not granted full citizenship |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
This does not contradict anything I have mentioned earlier, not are Israelis policies like Austrilias and the USA's racist. |
Jesus!
A typical immigration policy is as follows:-
-people who are oppressed (asylum seekers)
-skilled migrants
are all granted citizenship
None of the above are dependent on race or religion or nationality
Whereas in Israel, you have to be Jewish |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Jesus!
A typical immigration policy is as follows:-
-people who are oppressed (asylum seekers)
-skilled migrants
are all granted citizenship
None of the above are dependent on race or religion or nationality
Whereas in Israel, you have to be Jewish |
No, the above are all granted citizenship. However, the preference is on Jewish citizenship. Israel still grants citizenship to skilled migrants and asylum seekers.
Please note in this regard, Israeli immigration policy is no different then say France or Switzerland.
If you can prove French ancestory, you get French citizenship, similarly if you can prove Jewish ancestory you get Israeli citizenship.
Why can the French nation grant frenchman citizenship but if Israel grants the Jewish nation Israeli citizenship it is racist? |
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| Cyrus King |
In order for the state of Israel to be formed in the eyes of the zionists (having a majority jewish population) their main goal was to somehow get rid of the palestinians.
So they went in and stole their land and made thier country. |
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| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
In order for the state of Israel to be formed in the eyes of the zionists (having a majority jewish population) their main goal was to somehow get rid of the palestinians.
So they went in and stole their land and made thier country. |
Do you mind if I contact some publishers and send them this quote? Might be a suitable introduction for "The History Of Israel - For Dummies". |
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