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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 52)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
Non-sense.
You give me arguments based on your opinions and views...but no facts to support it. Because there aren't any.
I don't know what wolrd you think you live in bro. Stop watxching the news and then making dumb remarks...
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First of all, stop making assumptions about what I know and what I dont know. I've already posted earlier on this forum regarding the history of the conflict. Go back and check.
Certain facts that can't be argued:
1. Palestinians ARE the indiginous population of what is Isreal/Palestine, whatever you want to call it.
2. Majority of what you consider to be Israel is illegaly occupied terriotory. A very small portion of the land was bought by zionist from the Arab landowners (i think the Saudi's) displacing the palestinians that inhabited it.
3. Israel (and IDF) target and kill civilians all the time too, women, children and men of all ages. They destroy palestinian homes/building/offices etc. (i.e. Israel commits acts of terrorism agression aswell. And is colonizer).
Just keeping some very basic facts in mind, its fairly obvious the Palestinians have suffered great injustices. I'm not saying that justifies terrorism as a means to an end but they have every right to defend themselves, fight back and force out an invading force. |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
My firend!
Lovely quotes!
I agree 100%, deception is pays a big part in this. But all that you mentioned don't prove your "its a two way road" statement.
I think you will agree with me, that terrorism needs to be confronted and erradicated by any means necessary. A two wy road implies that Israel is also a Terrorist entity. (is this waht you meant?)
In terms of Israelis arrested on suspicion of spying, consider this:
At all times in the world all goverment agencies and secret services have active agents in other countries...this is nothing new. US spies on Israel, Israel spies on the US....Canada spies on china, china on France, France on Russia, Rissia on Israel, France on Brazil, Japan on US...on and on and on...there are many countries in he world, so use a little finite math and try to calculate the endless possibbilities...
There was a recent report( I wont bring my source because it is unconfirmed) that thr US currently has 5 top secret military bases inside Israel. YOu can be sure that US agents operate in Israel at all times.( and in the territories for that matter)
People will spy on each other, no matter how good relations are. That is the bottom line.
NOw since you brought down numbers, can you also give stats for other foreign nationals that were detained?
Put those numbers against Israeli numbers and you will see a major difference.
All the best |
The compliment will be short lived when I write to you saying that:
A: Spies are terrorists in the eyes of the media and public opinion.
B: Many countries including Israel have spies.
That was my contention all along when I say that the street travels both ways.
Now for terrorism to end (which is a propaganda tool anyway) is for the calling in of all spies from all countries whether they be CIA in Israel or Mossad in the USA.
Besides what makes you think the US would be spying on Israel or vice versa? Why can't it be that they all work in conjunction? |
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| Escobar |
Israel does not TRAGET any civilians.....
In any war ( such as the war on terror) you are bound to have collateral damage; although unfortunate, it is the reaity.
NEVER has Israel trageted any woman or children....what you said is just left wing propaganda...you're in lala land buddy. Any targeted killings are directed at terrorists, and rightfully so.
Yes, Israel destroys buildings and houses...this is a preventive measure that has yielded proven results...that means it saves lives in the long run. SO we must weight the facts; a Palestinian losing a home against an Israeli losing a life. To me it is pretty clear that a life above all. Unless you don't consider an Israeli life to be worth it. Is this the case?
YOu say that the majority of Israel is illigally occupied territory. So I ask you this: ACCORDING TO WHO?you? ( that does not make it a fact!)
Lets look at the history of wars:
Lets take 2 countries X and Y.
If country X invades Y, and Y manages to fight back defeat forces in it's own land PLUS gain some enemy land. Country Y has no obligation to return land since the land was gained in a deffenssive act.
Before the Palestinian were even in the picture, this is what happened in the reigion from the conception if the country.
In terms of the indiginous population, you are once again wrong. As I wrote before, there was never a Palestinian people, the land was part of different kingdoms..none of wich was called Palestine.
All you have to do is go back even further in history, you will find that the "indiginous population" are the Israelites, the jews....who in many occasions throughout history, were invaded and kicked out of thier homeland.
There is so much Arab land....Israel is a TINY country....but the Arabs can have any of that...and THIS is waht it is all about.
GO LEARN SOME REAL FACTS.....some real History....
YOu are right , I am making assumptions that you don't know what you are talking about. The resaon I make these assumptions is because of what you write. All that you write proves to me that ALL your information is straight from the news ( which happens to be VERY Pro-Palestinian).
If you had some real facts and real knowledge, your arguments would have been very different.
I do agree that the Palestinians have suffered...but they were the ones who started an "armed struggle". This could have even gone under the raidar had they concentrated efforts on military operations only. But blowing up buses full of kids on the way home from school, and cafes full of people trying to have alife....I a sorry...there is no exuce...It's terrorism.
I guess we can blame Arafat for all of it...he is the one who instigated and preached so much hatread.
Now, he is gone, I have witnesses very positive steps and action by both sides within the last 2 weeks...
Lets hope for the best. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| If you choose to ignore certain facts and only consider the ones favourable to you, so be it. That attitude certainly won't help bringing peace to the region. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
Israel does not TRAGET any civilians.....
NEVER has Israel trageted any woman or children....
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thats simply false
| quote: |
All that you write proves to me that ALL your information is straight from the news ( which happens to be VERY Pro-Palestinian).
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:haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha: :haha:
The news, especially mainstream media, mainstream american media is in NO WAY pro-palestinian. Infact it leans far more to a pro-Israeli bais than anything else in this issue.
I have no idea where you got that from. Pro-palestinians. :stongue: :stongue: :haha: :haha:
| quote: |
In any war ( such as the war on terror) you are bound to have collateral damage; although unfortunate, it is the reaity.
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Thats a horrible argument to justify Israeli terrorism and agression.
The EXACT SAME argument can be used to justify Palestinian terrorism.
After all, the Palestinians are waging "war against invasion" or "war against colonization" or "war against opression" or "war for independence". |
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| ogvh5150 |
People are starting to forget about the last time Israel told us what was supposed to be a fact:
Israeli Intel given to US link here
| quote: | | In fact, according to Brom, these sources were utterly compromised by Israeli intelligence, which made the case for starting the war and kept it going as long as necessary. The retired general described Israel as a “full partner” in U.S. and British intelligence failures that exaggerated Iraqi President Saddam Hussain’s nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs in the lead up to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. |
Search for WMDs called off
Search for WMDs in Iraq over |
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| Escobar |
You claims that it is false that Israel TARGETS woman and children. That is complete nonsense.
Woman and children have died...but it was never targeted. There has never been any reports by any left or right woings news organization on this.
C'mon man....get real.
I dont ahve time right now....but I'll hit you back on this.
Peace |
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| h@x0r |
I was actually very surprised when I found out when the CIA got blamed for the botch-up, since I always thought that eventually it would come back to Jews. But thankfully the earth is still spinning in the proper direction and yes, at the end of each rainbow of , there's standing a Jew, directly responsible for the rainbow and the smell. :stongue:
Kids, remember, you never have to take responsibility for any of your actions or inactions, as long as you have Jews to blame it on.
Seriously, do you believe that ? What happened to the good-ole fashioned greed of oil companies??
If anything, I don't think Israel was that interested in Iraqi invasion, to be honest. The devil you know is better than the one you don't. With the Israel's intelligence service being the best one in the world, I am sure they knew if Iraq had WMD's or nukes. to have US come in there and dispose of Saddam, leaving a power vacuum would be a bad move. Now, all the radicals are flooding into the area and once they are done killing each other off, will have a radical islamic country friendly to terrorist organizations. I dunno - not the best move, IMHO. but that's why I am not a politician - just a lowly mortal. |
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| TranceGiant |
It's easy to say that in retrospective....However, before the invasion the optimists (me among them) thought that it would run smoothly and "by itself" and on top of that even trigger a domino effect throughout the whole region.
neither happened. |
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| Escobar |
I found a forum by Israelis...political discussions..
www.isratrade.net/forum
It would be interesiting to see your arguments there,and it would be also nice to actually hear Israelis defending themseves..
If you are all game, go there and make your arguments... |
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| shaolin_Z |
I skimmed through/read the forum you directed me to. It still hasn't changed my opinion. Firstly, I don't think it's fair to displace an indigenous population based on a religious claim to the land. Wasn't the messiah supposed to take the Jews back to the holy land?
Apart from that, all the arguments presented don't change the fact that the Palestinians are the indigenous population and have every right to defend their homeland from invasion. That's what anyone would do. |
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| Escobar |
Ok, I know we all give our opinions and thoughts...but I haven't seen ANY hard facts...this is what I will do now...I will start from the begining...
1920-1946 the British Mandate:
Under the terms of he mandate, Britain’s principal obligation was to facilitate the implementation of the Balfour Declaration of November 2, 1917 which pledged “The establishment of a national home for the Jewish people”.
July 1922:
The British divided Palestine into two administrative districts. Jews would be permitted only in the west side.
June 1946:
The British had partitioned Palestine and created an independent Arab state-JORDAN
November 1947: On the 29th of November the General Assembly of the United Nations voted with a 2/3 majority to Partition western Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab state.
THE ARABS REJECTED IT!!
The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated: “I declare a holy war my Muslim brothers, murder the Jews, and murder them all!”
On the day that Israel declared its independence, the armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the intent of destroying it. The new Jewish state survived.
THE REFUGEE ISSUE:
Approximately 720 thousand Arabs, encouraged by their leaders to leave, fled from what is now Israel. At the same time, Approximately 600 thousand Jews were forced to flee from various Arab states and sought refuge in Israel.
1949:
Israel signed an Armistice agreement with Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.
No attempt was made by the part of the Arab countries to solve the problem of the refugees; instead, they kept them in camps with the intention of using them as political pawns.
The Arab countries still didn’t accept the existence of the State of Israel.
During the early months of 1966, the Syrians from high up in the Golan Heights shelled Israeli towns indiscriminately.
May 15th 167 Egyptians forces moved into Sinai.
May 18th 1967 Egypt expelled UN peacekeeping forces from the Israeli border.
May 22 1967 Egyptians closed the Straits of Tiran to Israeli Shipping.
May 25th 1967 Encouraged by Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Iraq and Saudi Arabia moved their troops to Israel’s border.
May 26th 1967 President NASSER of Egypt declared: “Our basic goal is the destruction of Israel.”
In June 1967, Israel was forced once again to defend its existence. At the end of this war, Israel managed to have a strong hold on the Gaza Strip, the Sinai desert, Judea, Samaria and parts of the Golan heights.
REMINDER:
The disputed area of the WEST BANK belonged to JORDAN since 1948 and NOT to the Arabs living in Palestine.
And what resulted from the Arab summit conference in Khartoum Sep 1967??
I’ll tell you: A resolution that stated: NO peace with Israel, NO recognition of Israel and No negotiations with Israel.
1970: Civil war in Jordan.
Between 1968 and 1969 Arafat had established a nation within a nation in Jordan, terrorizing the country and threatening to overthrow King Hussein.
Hussein and Arafat repeatedly hammered out extensive and specific agreements to bring the chaos under control.
Time and again Arafat violated those treaties. So the king made an unprecedented and astonishing gesture of offering to form a government with Arafat; one in which the PLO leader would serve as Prime minister. Arafat REFUSED!! Why???
Because he kenw that such a deal would come with strings attached; He would have to stop his terrorist operations against Israel. That price tag was too high for him.
The next attempt to destroy Israel was made in October 6, 1973; Egypt and Syria launched a concerted military attack against Israel. They chose to attack on YOM KIPPUR, the holiest day for the Jews, a day when most Israelis were in Synagogues praying and fasting.
So my bottom line is that 3 major attempts to destroy Israel have been carried out by the Arab world. 1947-67-73.
Yet Israel still wanted peace, It gave back Sinai to Egypt in return for a peace treaty. Israel and Jordan also signed a peace treaty.
Israel was very close to an agreement with the Palestinians which would have resulted in an independent Palestinian state BUT, Arafat’s vision of the middle east was one in which Israel did not exist.
Despite all this, Israel is still trying to achieve peace….open your eyes….stop blaming the victim. And Stop blaming the poor Jews for every problem in the world… |
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