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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 51)
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| h@x0r |
^^^^ Wondering how long it will be before 'the other side' will pounce on your argument :rolleyes:
Based on the general attitude and other factors, I firmly believe that in reality it is not about establishment of Palestinian state. It is about eradication of the State of Israel. The proportion of Muslims to Jews is about the proportion of territory of Israel to the other Arab nations - which is about 0.1%. So, please don't tell me it's about the territory.
And I do agree with what you said - that by establishing a Palestinian state we will only be creating another country in the "Axis of Evil". How easy do you think it would be for the likes of Al Queda to establish an infrastructure in the Palestine? Though some of the proposed methods are a bit utopian and not likely to happen. I just cannot see a nation of people bent on killing and teaching their children to kill just walking away from what has become the way of life. It's like a soldier who spent 10 years murdering returning to live among the "regular people". Many that do cannot hack it and either go nuts or blow their brains out. Now, imagine a kid who has been taught to wear explosives since his birth?
Some food for thought. We're not even mentioning Iran at this point - a country who openly stated that one of its objectives is the destruction of the State of Israel.
some food for thought. |
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| zig |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza is only the beginning of a much wider and extensive retreat from Yehuda and Shomron (Judea and Samaria), which will result in the establishment of a terrorist-based provisional Palestinian state.
Even with the best intentions, this will strengthen and encourage terrorist groups in the region and throughout the world. It will make it more difficult (if not impossible, once they gain international recognition and support) to stop the smuggling of weapons and troops to Palestinians.
Unilateral withdrawal will create a safe haven for tewherever rrorists they are.
Unilateral withdrawal will promote more instability and violence. Egypt has refused to prevent weapons smuggling from its territory and will not fight Palestinian terrorists in Gaza; Jordan can barely maintain security in its own country without taking on Palestinian terrorists. The result will be chaos.
Unilateral withdrawal undermines every compromise solution that might resolve conflicts, and turns power over to the very same people who operate terrorist groups in the area; it offers no incentive for ending the struggle.
Specific US legislation prohibits US citizens, businesses, or any government agency (including the president) from engaging in activity that directly or indirectly supports terrorist groups (like the Palestinian Authority, Hamas and Islamic Jihad), or any transactions with them (66 Fed. Reg. 51088 and Presidential Executive Order 13224).
The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act (1996) makes support of terrorist groups illegal. The National Defense Authorization Act (1996) prohibits the Defense Department from providing funds to terrorist countries and those who aid terrorists.
The Foreign Operations, Export Financing and Related Appropriations Act (1996) and the Omnibus Appropriations Act (1997) prohibit funding terrorist organizations.
The US Patriot Act to intercept and obstruct terrorism (2001) makes it unlawful to provide support or assistance to terrorist organizations.
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's withdrawal plan violates these laws by assisting the creation of a terrorist entity; by facilitating the plan, President George Bush would be culpable as an accessory to terrorism.
Unilateral withdrawal from Gaza undermines Bush's war against terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as his efforts to contain other countries that support terrorism, like Iran and North Korea. It undermines the "Roadmap to Peace", which stipulates a negotiating process. It will strengthen and encourage terrorists by rewarding them with greater autonomy and authority. It will eliminate the possibility of moderation and conciliation in those areas under Palestinian control.
Defending and strengthening Jewish communities in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, and elsewhere in Israel, is part of the worldwide effort against terrorism. Like it or not, the Jewish finger is in the dike.
The burden to keep hope alive rests not only on Israel, but on everyone; it demands a change in perspective. Consider the following as such an alternate view.
Solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict demands a change in perspective, not piecemeal, local maneuvers. This is a regional problem, involving surrounding Arab countries; all must work together, with international assistance and enforcement, towards a regional solution. The burden must be shared.
United Nations-sponsored Palestinian "refugee camps" must be dismantled, turned into towns and residents given citizenship rights in their host and/or other countries. Until the Palestinian Authority abandons terrorism and moves towards peace, Jordan should be considered the sole representative of the Palestinian people and responsible for them.
Palestinian terrorism and incitement must end as a prerequisite to any other progress. This is a fundamental principle, not only for Israel, but for the world community. Terrorism deserves no rewards or legitimacy. A society that teaches homicide and murder threatens not only Israel, but our entire civilization.
The Palestinian Authority (and its militias) must be abolished, since it is a terrorist organization. All funds should be directed to legitimate institutions that promote the health, education and welfare of "Palestinians" in need, for a limited period, wherever they reside and whatever their origin. This will allow people to get on with their lives.
Terrorism must end once and for all. That's the bottom line.
Patience. This is going to take a long time. Only after communism was defeated was it possible to reform the Soviet bloc or build democracies in Latin America. We are talking here of a historical epoch of 20 to 50 years.
Steadfastness. Only a willingness to wage a long-term struggle can succeed.
Fighting back. Using everything from force to maintaining one's normal life.
Containing extremism. Denying it victories, especially a chance to extend its rule to more countries.
Encouraging alternatives. Alternative forces in the Arab and Islamic world must be encouraged, while understanding that outsiders' influence will be limited and transformation slow.
Tell the truth. Lies must be combated and struggle waged on the intellectual battlefield to combat the "useful idiots" (Lenin's term) and fellow travelers who echo the radicals' propaganda.
The battle against radical Arab nationalism and Jihadist Islamism involves the willingness to fight for one's rights, to sustain that battle over a long time, to avoid appeasement, and to win possible allies. None of this is glamorous. But history will show that this is what the current era |
Your whole post is based on assumptions on your behalf...and it sounds like your quoting out of a book or something..or a recently written article..im not trying to be harsh..but you certainly sound like you have an agenda..i might be wrong..i might not be wrong..but thats why i thought your first post didnt sound credible...because you certainly seem to be pro zionist given what you have written above..prove me wrong..
There are so many assumptions you have made in your post..that you seem to believe that they are definate certainties as a consequence of a peace deal..to many for me to quote you direct on each one... |
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| ogvh5150 |
| Anyone can argue 'til they are blue in the face of the complicity and conspiracy of many a world leader but since those same leaders make the laws they will never stand trial. |
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| Escobar |
Look,
I happen to agree 100% with the Israelis. If you want to call that pro-Zionist...go ahead.
I don't think you should put labels on people.
I can do the same and label you a pro-terrorist. (given the fact that Palestine for the time being is a terrorist entity)
I took alot of time to right what I did, it is certainly not fromm an article. I happen to be a Poly Sci major.with a secnd degree in middle eastern studies.
So I can say that I am not basing my facts on assumption but on past events. After all that is all we have to go by. No one can see into the future. What I did was simply provide for a clear cut assessment of the situation.
In case you didn't know, that whole region is pretty cut throat. It is necessry to be harsh and analitical.
Dont insult my inteligence |
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| h@x0r |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
Look,
I happen to agree 100% with the Israelis. If you want to call that pro-Zionist...go ahead.
I don't think you should put labels on people.
I can do the same and label you a pro-terrorist. (given the fact that Palestine for the time being is a terrorist entity)
I took alot of time to right what I did, it is certainly not fromm an article. I happen to be a Poly Sci major.with a secnd degree in middle eastern studies.
So I can say that I am not basing my facts on assumption but on past events. After all that is all we have to go by. No one can see into the future. What I did was simply provide for a clear cut assessment of the situation.
In case you didn't know, that whole region is pretty cut throat. It is necessry to be harsh and analitical.
Dont insult my inteligence |
Just a shot in the dark here: You are copying/pasting from your term paper, aren't you? Be honest... c'mon... :p :D Admit it! you want our reaction so that you can tweak it! You cheeky monkey!!! :eek: :rolleyes: :tongue3 |
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| h@x0r |
This is the reason why it will take generations before even a dream of peace will be a possibility in Israel:
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| Escobar |
Like I said before....
There will only be peace when the Palestinians start loving their children more then they hate the jews.
Sad, but true.....the picture says it all... |
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| shaolin_Z |
| There would be no reason for some palestinians to hate jews if israel wasn't an agressive colonizer. Yes, it's true that there is anti-jewish sentiment amonst some palestians. that sentiment exist because they've been living in opression and humiliating conditions impossed on them by Israel. What the hell do you expect them to do. Sit back and take it? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
I can do the same and label you a pro-terrorist. (given the fact that Palestine for the time being is a terrorist entity)
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Israel has also commited countless acts of aressions and terorrism. They're not innocent eighter. |
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| Escobar |
Non-sense.
In case you have never studyied history or the middle east....Arabs in general have ALWAYS had a profound hate for jews.
you claim that sentiment only exists because they've been living in opression and humiliating conditions impossed on them by Israel.
That is also non-sense. What about all the killings and rapes and attrocities done by the "Palestinians" before the conception of Israel. THis was under British Rule....No might IDF to protect the jews then!
YOu might ask yourself why I used "" when reffering to "palestine". Well I'll tell you another historical FACT: There is no such thing as a Palestinian; those are simply Arabs from many different kingdoms...When the middle east was partitioned into different kingdoms...the land was divided and given to different "Kings" to rule...Most arabs of the area belong to the Hashmonite kingdom. They are arabs from Jordan, Syria and Egypt....
YOu make it sound as if terrorism and attacks on jews started after Israel was created and that this terrorism is caused by actions taken by the sate. Well, once again go learn your history!
You give me arguments based on your opinions and views...but no facts to support it. Because there aren't any.
Contrary to what you may believe, Israel has not and does not commit acts to terrorism. All actions on the ground are taken as preventive measures. According to the UN a sovreign nation has the right to take any necessary measures to protect its citizens.
There is chaos in the plaestinian streets, no rule of law.....Clans and gangs run the streets...murder and rape is rampant....the abuse of women is at an all time high....weapons are a common sight anywhere in palestinian areas....wake up...open your eyes..
Terrosism is a problem, it is a cancer in the world.
During the Oslo years, Israel gave into 95% of the demands of the Palestinians....what was the result of that???
I'll tell you: ANTIFADA.
This proves that they did not want peace or negotiations. They simply longed for the destruction of the young State of Israel.
I don't know what wolrd you think you live in bro. Stop watxching the news and then making dumb remarks...
When the terrorists strike....they will not spare you left wing tree huggers!
We are all in the same boat....
It's time to stop blaming the victim for everything...
Israel has a right to exist, a right to deffend itself, the right to survive and the right to fight terror! |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Escobar
...Terrosism is a problem, it is a cancer in the world...
...We are all in the same boat....
It's time to stop blaming the victim for everything...
Israel has a right to exist, a right to deffend itself, the right to survive and the right to fight terror! |
Yes "Terrosism is a problem, it is a cancer in the world", but that street travels in two directions:
IDF reviving psychological warfare unit (Haaretz online article)
| quote: | The overall intention is to conduct "awareness operations" to influence Palestinian public opinion, mostly through propaganda, psychological warfare and sometimes disinformation....
...A senior military source told Haaretz that the air force distributed some 250,000 leaflets in the last two weeks, in which the army explained its reasoning in the war against terrorism, emphasizing that non-combatant civilians are paying the price for Hamas terrorism... |
Israeli Spying and 9/11:
Carl Cameron's Spiked FOX News Story
| quote: | | Since Sept. 11, more than 60 Israelis have been arrested or detained, either under the new patriot anti-terrorism law, or for immigration violations. A handful of active Israeli military were among those detained, according to investigators, who say some of the detainees also failed polygraph questions when asked about alleged surveillance activities against and in the United States. |
By way of deception, thou shalt do war.
Mossad
All warfare is based on deception.
The Art Of War
Sun Tzu
One cannot wage war under present conditions without the support of public opinion, which is tremendously moulded by the press and other forms of propaganda.
General Douglas MacArthur |
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| Escobar |
My firend!
Lovely quotes!
I agree 100%, deception is pays a big part in this. But all that you mentioned don't prove your "its a two way road" statement.
I think you will agree with me, that terrorism needs to be confronted and erradicated by any means necessary. A two wy road implies that Israel is also a Terrorist entity. (is this waht you meant?)
In terms of Israelis arrested on suspicion of spying, consider this:
At all times in the world all goverment agencies and secret services have active agents in other countries...this is nothing new. US spies on Israel, Israel spies on the US....Canada spies on china, china on France, France on Russia, Rissia on Israel, France on Brazil, Japan on US...on and on and on...there are many countries in he world, so use a little finite math and try to calculate the endless possibbilities...
There was a recent report( I wont bring my source because it is unconfirmed) that thr US currently has 5 top secret military bases inside Israel. YOu can be sure that US agents operate in Israel at all times.( and in the territories for that matter)
People will spy on each other, no matter how good relations are. That is the bottom line.
NOw since you brought down numbers, can you also give stats for other foreign nationals that were detained?
Put those numbers against Israeli numbers and you will see a major difference.
All the best |
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