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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 37)
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
How ironic. Israel's policies and actions (the IDF in particular) are far more barbaric than any kind of Palestinian resistance.
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easy to say.
i think barbaric is:
- using children for provocation, instead of protecting them.
- blowing yourself up - trying to kill as many as possible. the more you kill the better.
- brainwashing people that suicide is the will of God.
israel may be using much more force, but its actions & morals are not barbric.
| quote: |
Barbarians or not, you're still dealing with human being here and they should be treated in a humane manner and not like animals. |
they are treated in a humane manner. just dont forget that they are still an enemy. how would you treat your enemy differently? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| oh please, the IDF kills civilians all the time, men, women and children of all ages. |
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| shaolin_Z |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flotser
israel may be using much more force, but its actions & morals are not barbric.
/QUOTE]
How the hell is massacring Palestinians, destroying their homes, stealing their land and forcing them to live in humiliation moral/not barbaric. |
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| Sevas Stra |
| Because palestinians are barbarians so dealing with them being barbaric would be a sort of paradox =O |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
oh please, the IDF kills civilians all the time, men, women and children of all ages. |
The reason that i believe some palestinians exhibit barbaric is because although innocents die on both sides, the INTENTION of palestian groups is to kill innocent israelis whereas when israelis kill innocent palestinians it is UNINTENTIONAL |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
How the hell is massacring Palestinians... |
wtf? |
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
This may seem off topic but it really quite relevant. I'd like to make a point here. Think about the anger and sorrow Americans felt after 9-11 and multiply that times a zillion. That's how ppl in other countries who suffer horrible attrocities and injustices feel towards our Goverment that is eigther directly or indirectly supporting those attorocities. If you dont get that through your head, you're never going to understand other countries feel. And the cycle of violence will continue. You cannot reach a solution without understanding the cause of the problem. |
Again you are justifying innocent intentional murder from the result of a past action. No matter what the US did in the past, relevant or not, it didn't warrant 9/11 just as the Israelis don't deserve having innocent people intentionally slaughtered. The key word here is intentional. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Flotser
easy to say.
i think barbaric is:
- using children for provocation, instead of protecting them.
- blowing yourself up - trying to kill as many as possible. the more you kill the better.
- brainwashing people that suicide is the will of God.
israel may be using much more force, but its actions & morals are not barbric.
they are treated in a humane manner. just dont forget that they are still an enemy. how would you treat your enemy differently? |
how is throwing a missile in a crowded neighborhood market at the busiest hour of the day and killing dozens different from a suicide bomber blowing himself up in a crowded cafe??
You know what the difference is.. YOUR GOVERNMENT EXECUTES THIS... THE GOVERNMENT YOUR PEOPLE SUPPORT |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
Again you are justifying innocent intentional murder from the result of a past action. No matter what the US did in the past, relevant or not, it didn't warrant 9/11 just as the Israelis don't deserve having innocent people intentionally slaughtered. The key word here is intentional. |
The fact that a military can signal a yes to "collaterally" murder palestinians is just as disgusting as intentionally targetting civilians. |
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| Izzy |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
how is throwing a missile in a crowded neighborhood market at the busiest hour of the day and killing dozens different from a suicide bomber blowing himself up in a crowded cafe??
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please dont be that naive.
do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that israel sends a missle in a crowded neighborhood market at the busiest hour of the day out of spite and fun. NO, there was a target, an enemy, a terrorist. that is how it is different. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Izzy
please dont be that naive.
do you honestly believe in your heart of hearts that israel sends a missle in a crowded neighborhood market at the busiest hour of the day out of spite and fun. NO, there was a target, an enemy, a terrorist. that is how it is different. |
they dont care what time of day it is or who is there.. that is the point. |
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| Cyrus King |
Violence At "Security Gate" Number 25
......... by John Petrovato December 12, 2004
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Jayyous, Occupied West Bank
On December 6, Palestinian farmers returning from their fields at 4:30 p.m. found no Israeli soldiers present at the “security gate” to allow them back to their homes. Because the so-called security wall (more accurately, called the annexation wall) has divided the residents of Jayyous from their fields, they must pass through, what the Israeli military has named, “gate 25”. The farmers waited, patiently, as hour after hour passed. They called the “emergency number” listed on the sign to be called “if the gate is not opened during the specified times listed”. The person who picked up the phone took the message but couldn’t promise anything. Around 8:00 pm the soldiers arrived, in a bad mood, and ordered the people to quickly pass through the gates. They said things like, “The gate is open - now RUN!” “Hurry up or we will close the gate!” while physically pushing people through, and “Move, Move, MOVE!” Of course, no apology was forthcoming from the soldiers who left some 100 people, including children, left to ponder whether they were going to have to find someplace to sleep on the fields. The farmers told me that they were really frightened of being left out in their fields all night in the cold. Such is the daily anxiety of passing through such “security gates”.
Last year the village of Jayyous invited ISM volunteers to monitor and document reports of violence at the newly installed “gate 25” along the “security/annexation wall”. It was discovered that ordinary farmers previously had been and continued to be beaten, intimidated, and even “arrested” by Israeli civilians. These were civilians who merely worked as security guards for the construction company. While employed to guard equipment and supplies for the building of the wall, these civilians acted as if they were military guarding against a hostile enemy.
Two gates, numbered 25 and 26, were installed for the 3,500 residents of Jayyous to use to pass through the fence (the majority of whom could only use number 25). The goal of the gates was to funnel and monitor the farmers as they came and went to their fields. The guards not only forced Palestinian farmers to show them their identification cards, but actually "arrested" people by locking them in a storage facility. What was amazing to me was the fact that these people were not even police or military, but ordinary civilians who were performing civilian jobs for a private company.
Now, one year later, even though the security company has left, little has changed in the village. The wall has been completed and the gates are no longer patrolled by civilian security forces, but by both the Israeli military and the Israeli border police. Over the past few days, I have witnessed and documented numerous cases of violence against Palestinians at these very same gates. The “non-civilian” representatives of Israel committed this time the violence. It is the same violence by Israelis, but with different professions performing it.
Originally the gates were to be permanently open to allow free access to the fields. The military court governing Palestinians agreed with the villagers that the land on the other side of the wall must remain theirs, even with a fence separating them from their land. A few months later, however, the gates were permanently locked, to be opened only three times a day under heavy military supervision. Now, these Palestinians also need an Israeli work permit to work their fields - nearly impossible to get unless one is over fifty or under fifteen years of age or the primary owner of land. The gates are only open between 6 am to 7:30 am; 12:30 to 1:30 pm; and 4:30 to 6:00 pm. That is what the sign says and which people - in planning their day - assume to be the case. Farmers are suffering major setbacks this year because so few people from the village received permits that would allow them to work their lands. The man I was working with just today has adult sons who would normally help him harvest, but because they couldn’t get permits, it was left to he and his wife - both in their sixties - to do all the work. While he had passed through the gate around 6:15 am, I approached it at 6:40 and found the soldiers locking the gate. The sign on the gate says that it is open until 7:30, so I wondered why should they be locking it and getting into their jeep. I called to them, but they just stared back and drove away without responding.
Other farmers began to arrive. They said that sometimes the soldiers left and came back later. Within about 15 minutes, some dozen or so donkey-pulled carts, tractors, and trucks began lining up. Some would stay in their vehicles, while others sat outside in a “waiting area” that the military built. The waiting area was a strange gateway looking object made out of concrete benches and a tin roof. It is gives the appearance that Israeli soldiers are concerned about the well being of people who have to sit and wait for them to open the gates. People sat quietly and waited patiently for the soldiers to return. Palestinians rarely show anger or disgust in front of the soldiers or police, for they are well aware that it could lead to harsh punishment - such as refusal to allow them to pass (even if they have the proper papers), beatings, and even imprisonment. A few of them came over and sat next to me and said, “Do you see what they do?” and “What can we do? This is our life”. Around 7:30 a Palestinian man approached me and introduced himself. He had been a teacher in the village for over 40 years, but is now retired. Over the years, he took all his savings and purchased land (over $100,000 was spent) for his family. All of these lands are on the new “Israel” side of the wall. With the new settlement currently being built there, he has no idea how he or his children will survive.
At 7:40 a.m., an Armored Personnel Carrier (APC) pulled up to the gate, followed by the Border police. Not only was the gate being opened up again after an hour had passed, but according to the sign, it shouldn’t even be opened at this time. The farmers got into their vehicles and slowly approached the soldiers one by one. The police had an armored vehicle in which one stayed in the driver’s seat, one questioned the Palestinians, and one sat on top of the roof with his automatic weapon aimed toward the people, including children. They had to get out of their vehicles, show their proper papers, have their cars and personal belongings searched, and then allowed through. The police questioned some people harder than others, and there was an incident where the officer grabbed a Palestinian man by the collar and put his face within inches of it. I couldn’t see clearly from where I was standing but it appeared to be to intimidate the man. A moment later he pushed the man back a bit.
I wasn’t sure whether I would have luck getting through the gate since a group of internationals were prevented from doing so yesterday. I did really want to get through as I had promised a friend in need to help him today. As I approached the police they looked searchingly at me and said, in an obnoxious tone, “What do you want”? I motioned that I was going to go to the fields and he responded, “Go away” and flicked his hand to reinforce his comment. I repeated that it was my intention to go into the fields and he said, “This area is closed”. I repeated that I would be going to the fields today and he grudgingly took my passport and made some phone calls. About 20 minutes later I was given permission to pass.
On the way back from the fields the soldiers also interrogated the farmers, searched their belongings, and demanded identification papers. The soldier asked me “Why are you going to this Palestinian village, don’t you know that they are all terrorists”? When I responded that I had friends there and have been here many times, he looked at me in disgust and said, “Get away from me”.
I also found out that certain men in there twenties are routinely detained for hours on end by the military. One man had been detained every day for 2 weeks for 3 hours a night. No explanation was ever given as to why he was being detained. This man often chooses to sleep in the fields at night to avoid the hassle of being detained. I asked a Palestinian farmer why he thought that the military acts this way and why would they need to search and interrogate people who are returning to a Palestinian village. He threw his hands up in the air and simply said: “It is their way of reminding us who is in control”.
Later in the evening, I was speaking to a farmer named Yosef. Yosef, a mild-mannered man in his mid-40s has three sons in there 20s who now refuse to pass through gate 25. The reasons that they don’t want to go through the gate anymore has to do with many incidents, but one event stands out in his mind as being the reason. A few weeks ago, when he and his sons were returning from the fields with a truck-load full of citrus, the soldiers guarding the gate made them unload the entire truck. Over 100 large boxes of oranges were unloaded on the side of the road and then reloaded back onto the truck. It took over an hour to complete the task and when it was completed, the soldiers ordered them to do it again. The sons protested. The soldiers then, at gunpoint, put a noose around one of his son’s necks and tied the other end to a military Jeep. Another one of his son’s was repeatedly hit and pushed by another soldier. Yosef obliged the soldiers and unloaded and reloaded the truck once again. The humiliation that Yosef experienced in front of his son’s and at the hands of the teenage Israeli soldiers in unimaginable. Not surprisingly his sons want to avoid passing through the gate.
These events, when they happen to Palestinians, are evidently not “news worthy” to most media outlets. While beatings as mentioned above are not daily occurrences, the constant threat of violence is evident by the composure of the soldiers and police, not to mention their history. They illustrate the intimidation and humiliation that every Palestinian must endure silently, or face serious consequences if they do not. The soldiers and police simply despise the Palestinians collectively. It is not that some Palestinians are considered bad by the Israeli soldiers, but that they are all, as members of a specific ethnic group, despised.
As the situation in Palestine deteriorates every week with more land confiscation, more intimidation and violence, and thus more hopelessness, I have come to the conclusion that the famous saying that activists decry: “The whole world is watching”, is unfortunately untrue or irrelevant in preventing the numerous untold daily abuses of Palestinians.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showart...=22&ItemID=6847 |
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