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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 75)
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nou
I hate (...) buhdists. |
You go to hell and you die!
Oh, wait, Buddhists don't believe in hell.
You learn to spell! You learn to spell, die and reincarnate as an emo kid! |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Nou
If you count the incredibly short time the UN was incontrol, then your right, but for a majority of the time it was British forces. |
Right, the UN was in control for one year. Not a short time, but not long either. In that time frame they came to a conclusion that both sides could never live peacefully together in one country no matter who was in charge. Therefore they decided to split the UN mandate into two seprate nations; one Jewish and one Arab.
The Jews accept there state. The Arabs decided to gamble their state and go for all or nothing. They lost. They got nothing.
Prior to their stupidity, the Arabs were constantly in war with the Jews under the British mandate. Prior to the British mandate the Arabs were in war with the Jews under the Ottomans.
It doesn't matter who is in "control". If you honestly beleive just because the UN will all of a sudden be in control the Arabs will stop killing Jews then you are mistaken.
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The only reason that Israel found such backing in Europe was because of the incredibly strong anti-semitism in France and the UK. |
The decision for the UN's mandate to create two states and the acceptnace of the Jewish State of Israel in that mandate constituted a majority vote for all UN General Assembly members at the time (I believe 70 or so... if which many Arab nations are included), not just the nations of France and UK.
| quote: | | and the UK wanted to pull out of the middle east all together. |
The UK did NOT want to pull out of the Middle East. The end of UK/French influence over the sphere of the middle east ended after the 1956 Suez war, whereby America became the dominate western power over the region.
If the UK wanted to pull out of the middle east in 1947 it would not have attempted the foreign policy initiatives it conducted for a decade after 1948 (such as retaining control of Suez, Iraq, Iran, etc)
The reason the UK wanted to get rid of its responsibility over Palestinine was because it was the exact same hole then as it is today. Arabs and Jews were having at it, the Brits were caught in the cross-fire, the parties could not agree to live in harmony with one another - British troops were dying, UK funds were deplited on nothing (there was no oil in the mandate at all or any other substantial resources), and PR was just being damanged. Why go through it? They gave it the UN.
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Even under British control, the people in Palestine were able to conduct business as they saw fit for themselves. |
Umm. No they weren't.
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After the creation of Israel these decisions were put souly in the hands of Jews from Europe and eastern European Soviet countries such as the Ukraine. |
Wrong again. After the creation of Israel all Arab countries declared war on the state. Since like you, they associated Israel = Jew, all Jews in there countries were persecuted. Because of this - 500,000 Jews from ARAB nations were forced to flee their homes, business, property, and friends, for a safe haven - which was Israel.
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It was no longer a multinational state, but had become a Jewish state. |
The Jewish state is mulit-national. Do you mean multi-cultural? As it is this as well. What do you mean? Israel has 20% Arab population, and about 5-10% Christians, Druze and others.
On the otherhand Jordan, and the Palestinian territories are overwhelmingly Palestinian and Muslim with a non-existant Jewish population. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
You go to hell and you die!
Oh, wait, Buddhists don't believe in hell.
You learn to spell! You learn to spell, die and reincarnate as an emo kid! |
Lira, he wasn't being serious there. It was sarcasm (with maybe a kernel of truth).:p |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Lira, he wasn't being serious there. |
Neither was I :) |
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| jonSun |
| I dont understand this. The Palastinians have been there maybe 1000 years plus or minus. Israel has been there a little more than 50 years. Palastine has never had a good economy or military in 1000 years. In Israels 50 years has the most powerful military in the middle east & stable economy. If the Palastinians had all of Israel, what would they do with it. Probably jack . Give them Gaza & the West Bank & then they better shut up. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by jonSun
I dont understand this. The Palastinians have been there maybe 1000 years plus or minus. Israel has been there a little more than 50 years. Palastine has never had a good economy or military in 1000 years. In Israels 50 years has the most powerful military in the middle east & stable economy. If the Palastinians had all of Israel, what would they do with it. Probably jack . Give them Gaza & the West Bank & then they better shut up. |
Most the Palestinians weren't there for 1000 years either, they came when the Jews built up a strong and stable economy out of the wasteland. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Most the Palestinians weren't there for 1000 years either, they came when the Jews built up a strong and stable economy out of the wasteland. |
That's complete bull. THE PALESTINIANS ARE THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLE OF THE REGION. But ofcourse zionist will deny that cuz that simple fact makes it very hard to be sympathetic towards Israel and it's deplorable policies. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by jonSun
I dont understand this. The Palastinians have been there maybe 1000 years plus or minus. Israel has been there a little more than 50 years. Palastine has never had a good economy or military in 1000 years. In Israels 50 years has the most powerful military in the middle east & stable economy. If the Palastinians had all of Israel, what would they do with it. Probably jack . Give them Gaza & the West Bank & then they better shut up. |
Done with billions of dollars(annually) of US support and military aid. Next time you may want to do a little research before passing ignorant comments like that. |
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| jonSun |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Done with billions of dollars(annually) of US support and military aid. Next time you may want to do a little research before passing ignorant comments like that. |
I know where the $$ comes from. And a good portion of it is big money corps around the world. But Palastine hasnt done with what they had over the many many years while other middle eastern countries have (& I dont mean cause of oil). Even Lebanon had its hay day. So WTF is up with Palastine.? |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by tatgirl
I never said you should. Again, you're filling in the blanks here, and considering the 2 of us have never partaken in any debate on here before, and you won't find any past post from me that is racist against the Palestinians, dont go jumping to your conclusions. I watched many movies that show your side of things, and feel sympathy for the Palestinians. Some of your greater co-horts on here know me in person, and know I am FAR from 'racist', as u accuse.
Sure you are well versed at posting your 1-sided argument, which always is based in 'look how horrible Israel is!'. Yet, anyone who is in favor of an Israeli state is pegged as 'Zionist scum'. I am equally impressed how many of you throw the word 'zionist' (= pro-state of Israel) around as an insult. That's the racism there. You CAN NOT deny the tie the Jewish people have to the land, in terms of historical value, no matter how hard you try.
that doesn't mean you don't wish it.
Believe me, you are FAR from being hindered on letting the world know about the Palestinian human rights violations. I see you inform the rest of us on a daily basis. Your screen name is Palestinian, your avatar is... whatever, and while you're based in Toronto, I've NEVER seen you post once on any event in the TO forum, it is obvious what your sole purpose on tranceaddict is, and that is to post in the political forum about your favorite topic. Hey, no society is perfect. But you can't move forward, if you don't start solving the root of the problem, and no, its not the occupation of Israel. When a society glorifies suicide bombers (see your avatar), you have a real obstacle there.
Your wrong- it's not a conflict between 2 countries- it's the entire Arab world against Israel. Would you like me to start listing off cases of how Jews were oppressed in Arab countries, LONG before the state of Israel ever existed? What would that solve? Nothing. But it would prove that Arabs have long been in violation of Jewish rights. Think I could safely travel to a place like Saudi Arabia? I think not.
Please tell me about these awareness groups on the Arab side. I would like to hear more about them, instead of all the finger pointing. |
Well you did say “why don't u go focus your aggression on the lack of women's rights, gay rights & human rights in all your other Arab countries, instead of pointing the finger at Israel.” Perhaps you’re not a racist but what you said was a racist comment. It’s like telling an Iraqi under Saddam’s regime to go focus their ‘aggression’ on other problems in the other Arab countries rather than the Iraqi problem at hand – Saddam’s oppressive regime…and it’s insulting to Iraqis as a people to tell them that. Same goes for South African blacks under former Apartheid, or any other people who speak of living under oppressive regimes.
You may call my argument one-sided, but I’m simply pointing out the Palestinian point of view, and if that’s one-sided then so be it. Again it’s like telling a black person under Apartheid that their arguments against Apartheid are one-sided because they failed to talk about violent attacks against the white people. Nevertheless, I do not agree with attacks against civilians, even settlers. I don’t support that . However, I do support attacks against the military, non-violent action, civil disobedience, divestment campaigns, external pressure such as the ICJ ruling on the Wall, and activist movements.
I’ll tell you what’s racist about Zionism. I’m not denying the claims the Jewish people have to the land. What I am against is that Zionism means Jewish majority only. Zionism means a Jewish state but at the expense of the Palestinians who already live there. They would have been the majority if the 1948 war didn’t happen, but would that be acceptable under Zionism? And if it is, then let the refugees return, as they should under International Law. The refugees who lived there for generations cannot return because Israelis are afraid they would become the majority, and that’s the problem with Zionism. Same thing when Israel took the West Bank and Gaza in 1967, it didn’t give the Palestinians there Israeli citizenship and rights like Israeli Arabs have, and that’s because they’re afraid the Arabs would become the majority, so instead they implement a military occupation that has lasted 38 years. This is the problem with Zionism. It doesn’t accept anything else but Jewish majority, even if the place is the Palestinian’s homeland as well!
I don’t consider my avatar a suicide bomber. It’s a Fatah symbol of a Palestinian resistance fighter. They’re not all suicide bombers. Although I don’t support the bombings, I do the support the resistance as a whole. And the root of the problem aren’t the bombings as you say. 38 years under occupation leads to some very angry individuals. The blacks under Apartheid committed atrocities against whites, yet everyone knew that the root of the problem was Apartheid, not the atrocities.
Egypt signed peace with Israel, Jordan signed peace with Israel, Saudi Arabia is ready to sign peace with Israel provided it ends the occupation, yet you claim it’s the whole Arab world against Israel. End the occupation and then you may have legitimacy to your claim. Yes I know Jews were oppressed under Arab regimes before Israel was established, they were oppressed under Europe too, a lot more. This doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t end the occupation. And obviously millions of Arabs are angry because of the occupation. Because they hear about Palestinians being violated everyday by Israeli soldiers. Do you expect them to like you and welcome you? The Arab world definitely needs to be more educated on human rights matters, yes we have serious issues, but you will never solve the anti-semitism issue as long as Israel dominates the Palestinians. |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
You know what? Every palestinian should marry an israeli (and obviously vice-versa). Then everybody would be israeli and palestinian at the same time, there would be no reason to fight. There you go. |
Hey Lira, this article might interest you.
ZNet | Mideast
Israel's Marriage Law
by Justin Huggler; UK Independent; August 02, 2003
Israel's Parliament has passed a law preventing Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. The move was denounced by human rights organisations as racist, undemocratic and discriminatory.
Under the new law, rushed through yesterday, Palestinians alone will be excluded from obtaining citizenship or residency. Anyone else who marries an Israeli will be entitled to Israeli citizenship. Now Israeli Arabs who marry Palestinians from the West Bank or Gaza Strip will either have to move to the occupied territories, or live apart from their husband or wife. Their children will be affected too: from the age of 12 they will be denied citizenship or residency and forced to move out of Israel.
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch sent a joint letter to the Knesset, Israel's parliament, urging members to reject the bill. "The draft law barring family reunification for Palestinian spouses of Israeli citizens is profoundly discriminatory," Amnesty said in a statement. "A law permitting such blatant racial discrimination, on grounds of ethnicity or nationality, would clearly violate international human rights law and treaties which Israel has ratified and pledged to uphold." B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights organisation, joined in the criticism of the law. Yael Stein, a spokesman, said: "This is a racist law that decides who can live here according to racist criteria."
Some Israelis believe they are sitting on a demographic time bomb, with an Israeli Arab community, already 20 per cent of the population, growing faster than the Jewish population. The discrimination is not only against Palestinians, according to human rights groups, but against Israel's own 1.2 million citizens of Palestinian origin as well. The overwhelming majority of Israelis who marry Palestinians are the so-called Israeli Arabs - Palestinians who live in Israel and have Israeli citizenship.
"This bill blatantly discriminates against Israelis of Palestinian origin and their Palestinian spouses," said Hanny Megally of Human Rights Watch. "It's scandalous that the Government has presented this bill, and it's shocking that the Knesset is rushing it through."
The government pushed the vote through at speed, even agreeing to consider it a vote of confidence to get it through. It was passed by 53 votes to 25, with one abstention. Gideon Ezra, a cabinet minister, said: "This law comes to address a security issue. Since September 2000 we have seen a significant connection, in terror attacks, between Arabs from the West Bank and Gaza and Israeli Arabs." Since 1993, more than 100,000 Palestinians have become Israeli citizens through marriage, Mr Ezra said. But B'Tselem pointed out that only 20 of those 100,000 have been involved in suicide bombings or other militant attacks.
Human rights groups said security concerns could not justify the new law, which amounts to collective punishment. Noam Hoffstater, another spokesman for B'Tselem, said: "Those who voted for the bill and those who support it are making a very cynical use of security arguments to justify it, even though they used no data. This in fact was a cover for the real reason, which is the racist reason, the demographic reason." Many on Israel's right fear that it will be impossible to maintain Israel's identity as an officially Jewish state if the Arab sector becomes too large. "Today I lost hope," Sa'id abu Muammar, an Israeli Arab, told Reuters news agency. He has been hiding his Palestinian wife from the police since their marriage a year ago. "This is what we've been doing and this is probably what we will have to continue to do." |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Scorchio
I Wasnt trying to contribute intelligence, I was expressing my opinion and I have my facts to base it on:
1. You have a picture of a person holding a weapon in your avatar - terrorist.
2. You have stated more than once that you are an active member in Palestinian hostile Resistance groups
3. You have justified the Palestinian struggle through suicide bombings several times.
4. You have stated that Marwan Barguthy should have been the next Palestinian Chairman even though hes a well known terrorist.
5. You have stated your deep admiration towards Abd El-Aziz Rantisi and Yasin allot of times.
Yes, in my eyes you are a terrorist who tries to cover it with your god given intelligence that was probobly given to you by mistake.
The fact that you know history well and write down long posts does not make you right, you probobly copy-paste it from websites as I've read and seen your texts many times before.
I simply dont buy your act and I'm sick and tired of trying to argue with you, you dont want to contribute to the situation, you want solutions from one side only and blame everything on our side.
Occupation this and Occupation that, as far as youre concerned Palestinians are innocent holy people who just want their freedom.
We also want our freedom alongside with your people, shame you dont understand it.
Ill summarize
Yes you are a terrorist. |
1. Hardcore Trancer said it best: "So anyone thats is fighting back with a gun is a terrorist? then I guess IDF is the biggest terrorists of them all." My avatar is a symbol of a Fatah resistance fighter. They're not all suicide bombers. We don't have a military, so we have resistance fighters.
2. I didn't say I was an active member of Palestinian hostile resistance groups. I'm an active member of a non-violent human rights organization that advocates for the human rights of Palestinians.
3. I stated many times that I do not agree with suicide bombing operations. And presenting the Palestinian point of view isn't the same as justifying suicide bombings, as a Zionist usually argues.
4. I did support Marwan Barghouti when he was in the elections, whether he orchestrated any suicide operations or not, I supported him because he was corruption-free, he had the trust of the people more than Abbas, and he is a strong leader that can actually tell Hamas and Islamic Jihad to shutup and they would listen much faster than to Abbas. He basically could have united the Palestinians more than Abbas because both the most extreme Palestinians and the most moderate listen to him. After Marwan pulled out of the elections, I supported Mustafa Barghouti, who has virtually no blood on his hands. He's more innocent than Abbas. My grandmother voted for Mustafa. I met Mustafa last year as well. He is a human rights activist and doctor, never was a fighter. So you realize that my intentions were never for more attacks on civilians, but for Palestinian unity and human rights. I do respect the decision of the people though, and I do support Abbas now. I wish him the best and hope that he doesn't sell out our rights. And that's something I wouldn't have to doubt from Marwan or Mustafa, and that's why I supported them.
5. I admired Yassin's and Rantisi's ability to give Palestinians hope when there was no hope, to feed them when there was no food, to make them stronger when they were weak, to stand up to Israel's aggression when no one else did. ON the other hand, I do not support their suicide bombing operations, and I keep in mind that Israel funded Sheikh Yassin as a counter to Arafat's PLO in the 80s. Yassin couldn't have started up Hamas without Israel's grants. I also wouldn't want Hamas to remain a major political force when a Palestinian state is created. My views are the farthest from Hamas. If they were to be implemented as a political party in the future, much like Irgun and Stern, I wouldn't vote for them at all. I would either vote for Fatah politicians like Abbas or Marwan Barghouti or PFLP supported politicians like Mustafa Barghouti.
Whenever I copy/paste from a website, I mention it or source it. Everything else is what I write myself. Occupation is a form of terrorism in itself. I haven't seen you condemn Israeli state terror, yet you call me a terrorist when I said a thousand times that I don't support suicide bombings. If Israel wanted our freedom, it would end the occupation policies.
I'll summarize:
You are ignorant |
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