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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 148)
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by MrSquirrel
Hi Yoepus.
What happened to the mustard and the tank?
(I am trolling today figured why not troll here too :toothless )
MrS |
Of all the threads if PDD you chose this one?! This one to troll?:eyes:
Anyway, as for the sig: follow the link to in my signature or follow this new thread I created especially to address this question for you:
http://www.tranceaddict.com/forums/...1862&forumid=66 |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
No, I am saying some - they were in the same boat as others. And had a greater tendancy to enter the gulag due to their association with Judiasm and its often clashing ideals with soviet communism. |
Understood.
I have a problem with this entry. I know you can't speak for whoever wrote this on that wiki:
Jews and Bolshevism
Many members of the Bolshevik party were Jewish, especially in the leadership of the party. The idea of overthrowing the Tsarist regime was attractive to many members of the Jewish intelligentsia because of the oppression of non-Russian nations within the Russian Empire. For much the same reason, many other non-Russians, notably Latvians or Poles, were disproportionately represented in the party leadership. This was abused by the Tsarist secret police, the Okhranka, which used anti-Semitism and xenophobia as a weapon against the party.
The Jewish origins of some of leading Bolsheviks and their support for a policy of promoting international proletarian revolution—most notably in the case of Trotsky—led many enemies of Bolshevism to draw a picture of Communism as a political idea pursued to benefit Jewish interests. In Germany, the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler used this theory to paint a picture of a supposed "Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy". Even today, many anti-Semites continue to promote the idea of a link between Judaism and Communism. However, the concept that an entire ethnic group can be held responsible for the actions of a few is very widely rejected. The Bolsheviks seem to have been personally rather atheistic and internationalistic, more concerned with the plight of the working class in general rather than with any ethnicity or religious group. (See concepts of proletarian internationalism, bourgeois nationalism).
Most of the Jewish "Old Bolsheviks", along with their Gentile counterparts, were purged by Stalin during the 1930s. However, Stalin's ambitions to undertake a more general purge of "rootless cosmopolitans" (a euphemism for Jews), expressed in the preparation of the trial of the Doctors' plot, were never realised due to his death in 1953.
While there were a significant number of Jews in the Bolshevik Party the percentage of Jewish party members among the rival Mensheviks was much higher. The vast majority of Russia's Jews weren't in any political party.
A country overthrown by a few athesitic Jews? However, I am accepting the fact that there were an unknown number of Torah Jews that did not accept communism and therefore were sent way to live out their lives in the gulag.
| quote: | | Basically you will never be able to find exact numbers (just like you don't even know exactly how many perished in the gulag) as the USSR didn't serve as a prime example of scholarly record keeping. |
That is a bit unacceptable. They had to know whom to "arrest". If not the only other answer was that they probably just arrested whomever they wanted to make the rest of the people fall lock step.
You must know about Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership as well. I have had their paged bookmarked for some time now.
Getting back. Could it be possible the communist regime destroyed records?
| quote: | | Regardless I don't see how this has much do do about anything. |
I didn't say the Holocaust didn't happen. What I am saying is that other genocides did take place.
But it is ironic that from one of the websites you chose to use believes that "gun control is the key to genocide". |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
I have a problem with this entry. I know you can't speak for whoever wrote this on that wiki: |
I had a lot of problems with the wiki article. Don't think it really portrays a historical picture of Judiasm under Russia, what I had learned all too long ago was simialr but more detailed and exact. The wiki article read as an opinion piece with little citation of many incidents that happened against Jewery in Russia. But it still gives a structure of understanding, not very indepth thats all.
As for wiki... I don't really understand the point your trying to make..
Karl Marx was born Jewish as well, but similarly to many of the Bolshevics renoucned his religion and was actually anti-semetic (afterall religion does clash with idealic communism). Like wiki points out this does not stop many of the anti-semites today from linking Jews to some grand-scheme evil communist plan to take over the world and what not. This is of course what "capitalistic" anti-semites use in their rhetoric if you will. Whereas "communist" anti-semites use the sterotype of the greedy-money loving Jew that manipulate the capital market to take over the world and what not. Broad generalization but it makes the point.
I dunno, what did you find unfair about Wiki's hihglighted passages?
| quote: |
A country overthrown by a few athesitic Jews? However, I am accepting the fact that there were an unknown number of Torah Jews that did not accept communism and therefore were sent way to live out their lives in the gulag. |
| quote: |
That is a bit unacceptable. They had to know whom to "arrest". If not the only other answer was that they probably just arrested whomever they wanted to make the rest of the people fall lock step. |
They probably did arrest whoever and were the wiser for not keeping records of it. Afterall, records could only serve to later incriminate themselves... legalities weren't even formailites often times.
Hence the reason historians have had trouble piecing together numbers and estimates. Iron curtian indeed.
:) No actually first time I came across their site. Looks quiet proud though.
| quote: |
Getting back. Could it be possible the communist regime destroyed records? |
They've done it before, but on documents on a more sensitive nature. However, I quiet well beleive that they simply did not keep records of such thing. No doubt this could be settled with more extensive research.
| quote: |
I didn't say the Holocaust didn't happen. What I am saying is that other genocides did take place. |
Right and all I am saying is let the holocaust stand in its own light and all other genocides stand in their unique light as well. It is extremly fustrating when one lumps them all together. Not all genocides are created equal. And each deserves the attention to be looked into individually.
| quote: |
But it is ironic that from one of the websites you chose to use believes that "gun control is the key to genocide". |
Actually I thought their motto was something like "only gun control can prevent genocide" or what not.. |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
As for wiki... I don't really understand the point your trying to make.. |
I thought I had made it clear by my statement about athestic Jews. To me it seems an oxymoron of sorts:
| quote: | Many members of the Bolshevik party were Jewish or
The Bolsheviks seem to have been personally rather atheistic and internationalistic, more concerned with the plight of the working class in general rather than with any ethnicity or religious group. |
Their seems to be a slight similarity to Islam or Christianity that forbids killing of anyone including someone of the same belief. That goes against any doctrine. Jew kills Jew. Muslim kills Muslim. Christian kills Christian.
| quote: | | Karl Marx was born Jewish as well, but similarly to many of the Bolshevics renoucned his religion and was actually anti-semetic (afterall religion does clash with idealic communism). Like wiki points out this does not stop many of the anti-semites today from linking Jews to some grand-scheme evil communist plan to take over the world and what not. This is of course what "capitalistic" anti-semites use in their rhetoric if you will. Whereas "communist" anti-semites use the sterotype of the greedy-money loving Jew that manipulate the capital market to take over the world and what not. Broad generalization but it makes the point. |
I would call them atheists. Does that mean all atheists are bad? No. Whether their original belief in some theology had something to do with their latter day decisions is inconclusive. Is Hitler a Christian? I would think not. Even though he did go to church on some photo ops, a true Christian does not seek to kill millions of people. A true Christian does not concern himself with holding political office or control over a populations' lives. You'd have to be an atheist since generally accepted religious doctrines forbids killing.
| quote: | | I dunno, what did you find unfair about Wiki's hihglighted passages? |
One part they say they were jewish and another they say they weren't but they killed Jews anyway kind of deal. But like I've stated before it must have been Torah Jews that didn't like the ideas of the communists that were unfortunately sent away.
| quote: | | They probably did arrest whoever and were the wiser for not keeping records of it. Afterall, records could only serve to later incriminate themselves... legalities weren't even formailites often times. |
Same would go for the American slave trade. No one kept records but the estimates are in the millions for African slaves killed either through transport and/or arrival.
| quote: | | Hence the reason historians have had trouble piecing together numbers and estimates. Iron curtian indeed. |
True.
| quote: | | :) No actually first time I came across their site. Looks quiet proud though. |
Nothing wrong with a mission statement like:
| quote: | | To destroy "gun control" and to encourage Americans to understand and defend all of the Bill of Rights for everyone. Those are the twin goals of Wisconsin-based Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO). Founded by Jews and initially aimed at educating the Jewish community about the historical evils that Jews have suffered when they have been disarmed, JPFO has always welcomed persons of all religious beliefs who share a common goal of opposing and reversing victim disarmament policies while advancing liberty for all. |
| quote: | They've done it before, but on documents on a more sensitive nature. However, I quiet well beleive that they simply did not keep records of such thing. No doubt this could be settled with more extensive research.
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Already answered by you.
| quote: | | Right and all I am saying is let the holocaust stand in its own light and all other genocides stand in their unique light as well. It is extremly fustrating when one lumps them all together. Not all genocides are created equal. And each deserves the attention to be looked into individually. |
You rather there be a Genocide Day than Holocaust Day?
| quote: | | Actually I thought their motto was something like "only gun control can prevent genocide" or what not.. |
Stop to read what you post:
| quote: | | As stated in "Lethal Laws - Gun Control is the Key to Genocide", the number of people murdered by the Soviet government from 1929 to 1953 was 20 million. The victims of this genocide were anti-Communists and anti-Stalinists. How many of these people were Jewish is unknown, but as the then Soviet Union had a large population of Jews it can be presumed that many Jews were included in this figure. Under Communism, being a Jew was a risky business. To publicize one's Jewishness would have meant imprisonment in a gulag or a one way train ride to Siberia. For that reason, no exact figure for Jewish deaths is available. |
Many groups of people have died because their governments thought that they somehow in some idiotic way figured to disarm their people as an act of public safety then only to enslave and kill those that were disarmed. Could WW2 have happened without disarming the public? Would the Russians have avoided the Bolsheviks from taking complete control over their breadbasket had they been armed? No one knows. I would think not. A person disillusions himself into the belief that the government works in their best interests. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
I thought I had made it clear by my statement about athestic Jews. To me it seems an oxymoron of sorts: |
Oh right I see your point now. I dunno, people do it a lot - like they call Noam Chomsky a Jew, yet he is clearly not. Simialry with the Marx example, etc.... I though still subscribe to the you are what you are born unless you officially convert school of thought :)
| quote: |
Their seems to be a slight similarity to Islam or Christianity that forbids killing of anyone including someone of the same belief. That goes against any doctrine. Jew kills Jew. Muslim kills Muslim. Christian kills Christian. |
Yup - in Judiasm murder of anykind/anyone is forbidden.
| quote: |
You'd have to be an atheist since generally accepted religious doctrines forbids killing. |
I dunno, I still think you can be a fundy or misguided by religion. Afterall, look at the Islamic clercis issuing fatwah after fatwah ordering death and destructon. They are truely religious men, and many consider them to be true muslims, as I am sure they consider themselves... and I would call them muslims. Just the bad sort.
Though I guess it would be easier to just go with your line of reasoning and not call them muslims at all.
| quote: |
One part they say they were jewish and another they say they weren't but they killed Jews anyway kind of deal. But like I've stated before it must have been Torah Jews that didn't like the ideas of the communists that were unfortunately sent away. |
Yup most likely.
| quote: |
Same would go for the American slave trade. No one kept records but the estimates are in the millions for African slaves killed either through transport and/or arrival. |
Hmm, wonder how they got those numbers (probably by looking at US slave population numbers, extrapolating to other territories, and factoring in a likely dead slaves per living slave ratio). But then again businessmen are notriously good at keeping books.
| quote: |
Nothing wrong with a mission statement like: |
Oh yes I agree completely!
I misread it. When you wrote "gun control" I read "gun prevention". Guess I'm dyslexic or something. :(
Regardless I was certain they were for guns... just apparenlty there was a disconnect between eyes, brain, and fingers. I might want ot have that checked :)
| quote: |
You rather there be a Genocide Day than Holocaust Day?
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Short answer: No.
| quote: |
Stop to read what you post: |
yea yea.. I know... I do... see above. |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
I dunno, I still think you can be a fundy or misguided by religion. Afterall, look at the Islamic clercis issuing fatwah after fatwah ordering death and destructon. They are truely religious men, and many consider them to be true muslims, as I am sure they consider themselves... and I would call them muslims. Just the bad sort.
Though I guess it would be easier to just go with your line of reasoning and not call them muslims at all. |
It's like that Israeli on the bus recently that was beat up for killing people. I dunno the rest of the story other than Sharon called him a terrorist and I think the people either hung him or killed him.
You get one guy or a group and they spoil the whole bunch. It happens there in Israel. It happened here in Loiusiana with the lootings. Or race riots here in the US. Or school shootings, etc.
Somehow there has to be a catalyst for change by using a few people's misery to advance the majority to where they are needed to go.
Unfortunately things like that have to be done is stages:
Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis
Black + White = Grey
Grey + Black = Dark Grey
and so on.
Try this with a blind person:
Move an object of theirs an inch a day. Perferably something they use quite often. Sooner or later they will never notice the difference as to where you intended to finally place the object. |
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| ogvh5150 |
@Yoepus
There are religious fanatics and there are the faithful.
The fanatics believe their god told them to do certain acts by misinterpretation of their holy books.
The faithful believe their god told them to do certain acts that they would want to be done unto them based on their books and their conscience.
Your conscience guides you not to break any human laws just as much as God doesn't want you to break his laws.
This is a brief example that can be applied to all religions and ideologies.
With confusion of ideologies and religion it just gives atheists (which by definition is a religion) more fuel for their fire. |
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| shaolin_Z |
The Israeli military doing what it does best, killing innocent people:
| quote: |
Israel hits back with Gaza raids
Israeli aircraft have attacked a school in Gaza City, injuring at least 17 people, as Israel took action against the Gaza Strip early on Sunday.
Prime Minster Ariel Sharon's security cabinet backed operations "in the coming hours and days" after at least 36 rockets hit Israeli territory.
Major General Yisrael Ziv, army head of operations, predicted "a prolonged and constant attack on Hamas".
Gaza has seen mounting violence less than two weeks after Israel's pullout.
Officials quoted by Israeli newspaper Haaretz said the new "Operation First Rain" would be aimed at ensuring no repeat of militant rocket attacks on the Sderot area, which injured five Israelis overnight early on Saturday.
Artillery fire, air strikes and other targeted attacks are among the possible actions.
As the cabinet meeting broke up, news came of the first attack on alleged weapon storage sites in Khan Younis, in the south of the Gaza Strip, in which two people were reported injured.
The Gaza City strike targeted the Akram school, which was set up by the founder of the Hamas militant group, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin.
Israel says the school is used to raise funds for the group.
'No land incursions'
Israeli forces plan to resume targeted killings of militants and seal off the West Bank and Gaza Strip, officials told Haaretz.
A cabinet statement promised that anyone who attacked Israel would pay "a very heavy price".
However, according to Haaretz's sources, Mr Sharon ruled out any land incursions, saying Israel had not disengaged from Gaza only to re-enter.
The Israeli prime minister did reportedly advocate using artillery to strike at sites used by militants to launch rockets.
Israel's defence minister earlier ordered "harsh and varied operations" in response to rocket attacks.
"We have to make it clear to the Palestinians that Israel will not let the recent events pass without a response," Shaul Mofaz said.
Israel has reportedly beefed up its ground forces in the area and also set up an artillery unit along Gaza's northern border. Its withdrawal from the strip, completed on 12 September, ended 38 years of military occupation.
Missiles for rockets
Earlier on Saturday, Israeli missile fire hit two cars in the eastern part of Gaza City, killing three Hamas militants and injuring nine other people.
Israeli helicopters also fired missiles at a suspected Hamas weapons warehouse in the Jabaliya refugee camp and at two other targets in Gaza City.
The missiles appeared to have caused little damage but Palestinians said at least one person was injured.
At least some of the Palestinian rockets which hit Sderot were launched by the Islamic Jihad group which said it was retaliating for the killing of three of its leaders by Israeli troops in Tulkarm.
Israel said the militants were killed after opening fire on troops who were trying to arrest them.
Other rocket attacks were claimed by Hamas, which blames Israel for an explosion at one of its rallies on Friday in which 15 people died.
However, both Israeli and Palestinian officials have said it was probably an accidental explosion caused by the militants themselves.
Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas has called on militants to stop parading with their weapons.
"We are required more than ever before to end this frequent tragedy that resulted from chaos and military parades in residential areas," he said.
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Source: BBC |
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| hardcore trancer |
oh come one now but by doing that they were able to kill one evil terrorist.:rolleyes:
looks like we are back to square one again,Hamas attacks,Isreal attacks with 10X bigger retaliation.:( |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
oh come one now but by doing that they were able to kill one evil terrorist.:rolleyes:
looks like we are back to square one again,Hamas attacks,Isreal attacks with 10X bigger retaliation.:( |
Perhaps you should keep your bombs and guns ib your own land. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Perhaps you should keep your bombs and guns ib your own land. |
Perhaps you should get off their land. ;) |
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