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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 9)
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| sufee_b |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Isn't that what you said when that Hamas leader... ahh I can't remeber what happened to him.. but something happened to a Hamas leader... hmm I wonder if somebody remembers what happened :rolleyes:
I'll have to say the following: "Prove it!"
gee I said I'd stay out of it but...
you can now resume to your regular propaganda.
oh and Occrider, you right-wing zionist bastard you!
You cut the zionist mustard!:disbelief |
Are you kidding me??? Fighting from the British?? Jews were committing suicide sucide attacks since Rome occupied izrael...The Saccaris especially and the Zealots were big terrorists. Ofcourse todays Rabbis do not wish to comment on the subject matter |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
I never denied any assaults from Arab forces. The assaults were initiated by the Arab Higher Committee under the Mufti. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians were winning at the beginning of the war. Palestinians had already began to flee the country for their safety from the beginning.
On April 9, Deir Yassin village was massacred by the Zionists and this caused a mass exodus of Palestinians afraid for their lives. 400 villages were subsequently destroyed with dozens of massacres. Did you also know that the Hagannah used recordings of screams from trucks outside villages to scare people away. The Zionist leaders quickly realized that expulsion was good for the Jewish state. The goal wasn't simply to capture the portions alloted to a Jewish state but to also end up with as small a Palestinian minority as possible. Expulsion and compulsory transfer was discussed many times with the Zionist leaders who often preferred it and found no other way of establishing an independent Jewish state.
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Yes exactly ... the Arabs were committing similar atrocities/intimidation tactics against Jewish settlements and citizens as early as January of 1948. They were indeed "winning" as many of the British mandate police stations were simply handed over to Arab irregulars who flooded such critical checkpoints. By April, the Haganah embarked upon its offensive to reclaim and solidify territories ceded to it by the UN partition plan and carried out a system of expulsions in order to solidify a contiguous Jewish state. I'm not arguing that point at all actually ...
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I know what you're saying. And I'm telling you that there was a discernable Palestinian population for centuries. I know there wasn't a call for an establishment of a Palestinian state until the 20th century but there was always a Palestinian population that labelled themselves as Palestinians.
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And there has and always been a discernable bedouin population in Palestine and throughout much of the middle east for centuries as well. Or how about significant Kurdish populations in middle eastern countries as well? Does this entitle them to soveriegn territory and rights over land currently owned by Arab states yet settled by kurds?
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Jewish immigrants were Europeans who colonized Palestine and demanded a state on land that was already inhabited by Palestinians. I see no reason for Palestinians to have accepted living under a Jewish state. I wouldn't have accepted. It wouldn't make sense. [/QUOTE]
And that's why there was an independant Palestinaina state alongside the Jewish state in accordance with the partiion plan. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by sufee_b
Are you kidding me??? Fighting from the British?? Jews were committing suicide sucide attacks since Rome occupied izrael...The Saccaris especially and the Zealots were big terrorists. Ofcourse todays Rabbis do not wish to comment on the subject matter |
There is a big difference between 'terrorist' and suicide bombers.
I am not arguing that Jews were terrorist here (even though aruging that they were the first terrorist would be a stretch too).
So can YOU provide me with a credible source stating that the Jews were the first suicide bombers?
:rolleyes: |
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| hardcore trancer |
Looks like Isreal is finally hiting the right targets!!!:rolleyes: :whip: X100000000000000000
link here
Iam sure that little girl was smuggling weapons.:rolleyes: |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Yes exactly ... the Arabs were committing similar atrocities/intimidation tactics against Jewish settlements and citizens as early as January of 1948. They were indeed "winning" as many of the British mandate police stations were simply handed over to Arab irregulars who flooded such critical checkpoints. By April, the Haganah embarked upon its offensive to reclaim and solidify territories ceded to it by the UN partition plan and carried out a system of expulsions in order to solidify a contiguous Jewish state. I'm not arguing that point at all actually ...
And there has and always been a discernable bedouin population in Palestine and throughout much of the middle east for centuries as well. Or how about significant Kurdish populations in middle eastern countries as well? Does this entitle them to soveriegn territory and rights over land currently owned by Arab states yet settled by kurds?
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Jewish immigrants were Europeans who colonized Palestine and demanded a state on land that was already inhabited by Palestinians. I see no reason for Palestinians to have accepted living under a Jewish state. I wouldn't have accepted. It wouldn't make sense. [/QUOTE]
And that's why there was an independant Palestinaina state alongside the Jewish state in accordance with the partiion plan. [/QUOTE]
You're not being clear as to what you're arguing here, perhaps you would like to be more clear. I do believe the Kurds have the right to self-determination. I'm for the Kurdish cause.
The Jewish state would have had a huge Arab minority in it who were the natives of the land. Why should they live under the colonizer's rules and government when they're also demanding their own self-determination on the same land? |
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| Goashem |
| quote: | Originally posted by borron
Israelis are so stupid - they can't understand that leaving the palestinians alone, living in their own land (Gaza and West Bank) is in their own interest.
By the way, do any of you pro-israelis know that the first suicide bombers were jews in the British palestine fighting for their independence? So what do you have to say about that, huh? |
You don't understand that no matter how much Israel wants to leave palestinians alone, the palestinians don't want to leave Israel alone. It's in their best interest to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a Palestinian one. Israel is occuying those territories for security reasons. Furthermore if Israel will try and detach itself from Palestinians there would be some more palestinian whining as their workplaces are in Israel, their employers are Israeli. With no work theres no money no money no food no food...i think you get it.
What i have to say about that is this just proves that the conflict will never end. Both sides are determined enough to die for their land and unless one side is wiped out the cycle of violence will continue (and in no way am i suggesting the wiping out of either side). |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
You don't understand that no matter how much Israel wants to leave palestinians alone, the palestinians don't want to leave Israel alone. It's in their best interest to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a Palestinian one. Israel is occuying those territories for security reasons. Furthermore if Israel will try and detach itself from Palestinians there would be some more palestinian whining as their workplaces are in Israel, their employers are Israeli. With no work theres no money no money no food no food...i think you get it.
What i have to say about that is this just proves that the conflict will never end. Both sides are determined enough to die for their land and unless one side is wiped out the cycle of violence will continue (and in no way am i suggesting the wiping out of either side). |
On the contrary, it's in the best interest of Israel (in Israeli eyes) to get rid of the Palestinians before they become the majority. Palestinians are a poverty-stricken people. How can you accuse the poor of having their best interest in destroying a powerful and rich country when they can barely get a loaf of bread on their table? |
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| Goashem |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
On the contrary, it's in the best interest of Israel (in Israeli eyes) to get rid of the Palestinians before they become the majority. |
huh ? there would never be an arab majority in Israel because of its strict immigration policy. and i dont think that Israel cares whether there would be more Palestinians living in Palestine than in Israel as long as they are living in the Palestinian territories. Fact is Israel is already outnumbered by surrounding arab nations. why would they care if Palestine will be just another country on that list ?
| quote: | | Palestinians are a poverty-stricken people. How can you accuse the poor of having their best interest in destroying a powerful and rich country when they can barely get a loaf of bread on their table? |
i think you misunderstood what i said there. i didnt mean its in their best interest i meant the palestinians believe that its in their best interest to eliminate israel and that is because they blame Israel for the situation that they're in, and that all will be better once the evil zionist opressor will be gone. |
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| sufee_b |
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
huh ? there would never be an arab majority in Israel because of its strict immigration policy. and i dont think that Israel cares whether there would be more Palestinians living in Palestine than in Israel as long as they are living in the Palestinian territories. Fact is Israel is already outnumbered by surrounding arab nations. why would they care if Palestine will be just another country on that list ?
i think you misunderstood what i said there. i didnt mean its in their best interest i meant the palestinians believe that its in their best interest to eliminate israel and that is because they blame Israel for the situation that they're in, and that all will be better once the evil zionist opressor will be gone. |
Exactly, they wish to eliminate Israel becasue Israel wishes to eliminate them, their land, their culture and identity |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
You're not being clear as to what you're arguing here, perhaps you would like to be more clear. |
Certainly. Your original statement, to which I replied to, stated that one reason for a Palestinian rejection of the UN partition plan was due to the fact that in 1914, Jews compromised only 8% of the population (My sources tell me differentely since of the Arab population, approximately 10-12% were "immigrant" Arabs or Ottomans, and therefore could be considered "Palestinians" as much as Jews). To that statement, my reply was intended to convey the point that that historical time period is irrelevant to any territorial claims particularly when when those claims are being heeded for the purposes of drawing up boundaries (1947). In response to that argument, one could simply say that the number of Jews in Palestine in 1000BC numbered 100% of the population and that the number of Palestinians numbered 0%, therefore territories should be drawn up accordingly.
However, the nature of my argument was that in 1914 there was no widespread existence of a Palestinian Arab national consciousness at the time. The concept of a national consciousness often collided with family, village, and religious loyalties that prevented the bondage linking a widespread group of people to a piece of land as a source for primary identity. It would be analgous to a bedouin society whereby small-scale groups of peoples were inexcorably linked to the boundaries of their village yet not so much to the united territorial boundaries of a nation of sorts. It appears that identity consisted of Arabs living in a region called Palestine which was a part of the Ottoman empire. A true sense of "Palestinian" national identity only seemed to develop over time with clashes with Jewish nationalism in the form of Zionism.
Therefore if a the Bedouin population attains a sense of nationalism and self-consciouseness in whatever Arab states they inhabit, shall we look at the time period where they develop such notions or should we look a their historical ties to the land?
| quote: |
The Jewish state would have had a huge Arab minority in it who were the natives of the land. Why should they live under the colonizer's rules and government when they're also demanding their own self-determination on the same land? |
Hmm well given the fact that such a minority of Jews owned such a large swath of cultivatable land, it seems somewhat fortutitous for Palestinians that the majority of the land that the Jews were ceded was nonarable, desert land that was somewhat non-reflective of true Jewish concentrations. For example, if one wanted to get exact, Jews would be ceded some 38% of the Jerusalem district ... if one wanted to redraw districting lines, given the Jewish population density of Jaffa that could have been ceded quite a bit more land in that general area. However, as I stated before, the Jewish state would have encompassed a significantly large arab minority but a minority all the same. |
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| Goashem |
| quote: | Originally posted by sufee_b
Exactly, they wish to eliminate Israel becasue Israel wishes to eliminate them, their land, their culture and identity |
aha, and you base that on what? the fact that israel agreed to the return of palestinian land after they tried to annihilate israel? the fact that israel is willing to negotiate peace and offered plenty of proposals? the fact that even though israel has the capabilities it still didnt eliminate the people whose goal is to annihilate israel? or maybe its the fact that israels official second language is arabic? |
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| dj_ilan_yosef |
| quote: | Originally posted by Goashem
aha, and you base that on what? the fact that israel agreed to the return of palestinian land after they tried to annihilate israel? the fact that israel is willing to negotiate peace and offered plenty of proposals? the fact that even though israel has the capabilities it still didnt eliminate the people whose goal is to annihilate israel? or maybe its the fact that israels official second language is arabic? |
TRUE! |
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