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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 125)
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by gmoney
No, he is not. He is making rational arguments that support the history of what happened while you are stating your opinion then chastizing everyone else when they state their's. And while your studies in Terrorism and Security may certainly help you blow hot air in this forum, I doubt they will be helping you when you get a job at your local Mcdonald's. |
Nice!
But you dont actually know the "history of what happened" so how can you comment on who is right or wrong? History and politics are debatable. I can have a view on why something happened and somebody else can have a different view. What then happens is what Noble is doing by taking the parts of what I have written and explain why he doesn't agree. Then I go over his points and so on. Its called a debate. If you want to join in, put across your own arguments as to why you think I am wrong and then WE can have a debate. Or you can continue to make snidy little comments about my job prospects and people will begin to question whether you actually know anything about the subject you are sort of joining in with
Over to you... |
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| TheNobleEu |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I have said all along that the Holocaust generated support for the establishment of Israel. But the events that kicked off the whole motion of events that led to the establishment of Israel occured completely independent of the Holocaust. |
True, which we agree on, but irrelevant. "It got kicked off" but never rolled.
We're going in circles here, so as usual for me I'm just going to snip whatever is disproven by me but nonetheless repeated by you.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Britain was a power on the decrease since WW1 and would have left it's colonies at some point. |
Huh? Britain was in decline after WWI? :wtf:
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
When Britain left Palestine (assuming the Holocaust did not happen) what do you think the outcome would have been? Baring in mind the events that had already occured that had nothing to do with the Holocaust... |
Sigh. I lied, and will repeat, but will simplify:
If the Holocaust never occurred:
1. The Jews would had have no legal recourse for immigration at all to Palestine in the numbers they did post-1945;
2. Once already established, Jewish immigration to Palestine would not have increased further still in response to international pressure owning to pro-Zionist (Holocaust) sympathy (resulting in a status-quo, quite minority population);
3. There could not have been any sizable Zionist lobby for a Jewish homeland in Palestine (the Jews could not have collected the political or economic support for a state of Israel in 1945 either privately or through the UN, because:
5. The primary argument for the establishment of the state of Israel would have been null and void;
6. British policy would not have changed, so the British Viceroy would have had to honour the agreement and the Arab autonomous state of Palestine would have come into existence (*without* an equivalent Zionist state);
6. There wouldn't have been sufficient infrastructure and manpower for the Jewish terrorist independence movement in Palestine;
7. There would have been no motivation for the terrorist attacks the Jews committed against the British in Palestine in response to i. what they considered insufficient immigration quotas, and ii. turning away boatfulls of illegal Jewish immigrants back to port of origin;
8. Consequently there would have been no motivation for the British to withdraw from Palestine and wash their hands of the affair.
So the history of Palestine would have been totally different, and not favourable to a state of Israel c. 1945 (as it was not favourable 1915-1945).
Israel probably would have come into existence, but it would have been a structure of the international will, in order to control the Israeli-Palestinian conflict amd grant each their own autonomous state. As you can see, quite a different affair indeed from the current situation.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well Britain would certainly have left Palestine as they did with all their other colonies and would have done so after the WW2, |
Not so fast. See above.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
...so what exactly did you think would happen? |
See above.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Bare in mind the Jews were very strong militarily. |
Could not have become so without British and American support owing to pro-Zionist Holocaust sympathy, see point #6 above. This was at the expense of the Arabs, who had already rendered services and paid in full in exhange for the autonomous state promised them, which was never delivered.
Beginning to develop a little perspective, maybe?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Also Israel didn't enjoy half as much support from America as it did after 1967 (and that was because Israel would be a great ally against the USSR, again, nothing to do with the Holocaust) |
Here you're talking materiel (when the Brits left and the Americans came to take their place) and not political support.
What follows in your text is an explanation of why an Arab throws a rock and the Israeli responds with Hellfire laser-guided antiarmour missiles from a multi-million dollar Apache AH-64 gunship (antiarmour attack helicopter).
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Well the essay was awarded a merit at MA level so how you feel you are in a position to make such a comment is beyond me... |
My... gawd.
See above.
:eek:,
Noble |
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| TheNobleEu |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Not sure how any of the above responds to anything I have said? Indeed one might pass it off as "waffle" ;) |
I was outlining that you don't know Bin Laden's motivations all at, and commit the classic error (as done by the Allied administrations) of failing to know the first thing about your opponent's thinking. Not your fault, you have ample media precursor that you have based your own thinking on.
Basically, I only commented at all because you claimed to know his motivations, while disregarding his comments and demonstrating your lack of familiarity with the culture you're discussing.
If you want to call my remarks on that waffling, all power to you, but it bodes grim for your knowledge level in this matter, your qualification to comment on it, and indeed for your institution that granted you said mark on said paper.
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I must have said at least twice now what I believe is the greatest factor! The greatest factor, as far as I'm concerned, is American military bases in Saudi Arabia (a blasphemy as Saudi Arabia contains the holy sites of Islam) |
True, he thinks the House of Saud is almost Western in its corruption.
Question then: why not attack the House of Saud directly?
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Now, you seem to have been challenging what I consider to be bin Laden's motives and not replacing my views with your own alternatives. |
In a bit perhaps, but that would be off topic here, and I'm not obligated to do anything when all I'm doing is asking you to qualify the remarks you're making (which you still will not).
:tongue2,
Noble |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by TheNobleEu
We're going in circles here, so as usual for me I'm just going to snip whatever is disproven by me but nonetheless repeated by you. |
You have neither proved nor disproved anything. How can you have? We are talking about whether Israel would have been created if the Holocaust did not happen and therefore it is a hypothetical scenario that nobody can say how it would have transpired. It is just as impossible for either of us to "prove" that our views on what was the most important factor in the establishment of Israel, but again you claim to be proven correct in your assertion. You think the Holocaust is the reason Israel was created, I believe that although the Holocaust gathered support (and sped up) for the creation of Israel, that the events before WW2 were more important. It is not something either of us can prove it is an opinion. But you show enourmous arrogance by declaring yourself correct. You also seem to be slipping into the habit of using insults instead of arguments... |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by TheNobleEu
I was outlining that you don't know Bin Laden's motivations all at |
Now you just sound like you're trolling
You have the cheek to tell me I know nothing about bin Laden's motives, even though I have said what they are many times now. But you dont even stop there! Whilst you're telling me I dont know what bin Laden's motivations are you refuse point blank to give me your take on the situation.
If you are trolling me then fair enough, thats up to you
If you're trying to be serious I suggest you go back and read what I have said bin Laden's motivations are and then come back with your reply. And please note that what I have said are bin Laden's motives refer to the 9/11 attacks and not his AIMS |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: |
Israeli activist bridges worlds
By Laila El-Haddad in Gaza
Saturday 02 July 2005, 10:31 Makka Time, 7:31 GMT
"You can't just come storming in here," barks Neta Golan to foreign activists who walk casually into her kitchen during their lunch break.
"This is someone's house you know - there's a kitchen in the other apartment," she tells them.
"They don't understand it's rude to just barge into someone's home here - they have a lot to learn," says Golan about the internationals who have come to help support Palestinians in non-violent resistance.
Just another day in cultural training for Golan and the International Solidarity Movement (ISM), during which the 34-year-old Israeli activist explains to foreign volunteers when they can snap pictures, how to behave in people's homes and how to respect local Palestinians.
Golan - activist, mother of two and dedicated wife - shatters every stereotype an Arab may have about an Israeli Jew: She fights for Palestinian rights, she lives in Ram Allah, and she is married to a Palestinian from Nablus, with whom she has two children (Nawal, 2, and Shaden, 14 months).
Four years ago, shortly after the start of the second intifada, or uprising, she co-founded the ISM, a non-violent movement she describes as Palestinian-led and foreign-assisted, in which volunteers help to raise awareness of the Palestinian plight and to end the Israeli occupation.
Jewish volunteers
More than 4000 volunteers from around the world have participated with the ISM. About 20% of these volunteers have been Jewish.
Things weren't always so for Golan, who grew up in Tel Aviv, unaware until she was 15 that Palestinians were living on the same land or, worse, that they were victims of occupation.
"We went on some kind of school trip, and there was a woman talking about people who weren't allowed to organise politically, arrests without charges, homes being demolished, and I said, wait a second - you're talking about a South American country or something, right?" recalled Golan, who was born to an ultra-orthodox Jewish mother and a Zionist father.
"To me it was world-shattering. I couldn't believe this was happening in Israel. Growing up, I was always fed that we were the victims, that we had never harmed anyone," Golan said.
During the Oslo period, Golan began to dialogue with Palestinians and met her future husband.
False dawn
For Neta and many others, Oslo brought the promise of peace - a promise that would soon prove false, she says.
"I and many others naively thought things were going towards some kind of solution. For Israelis, the problem was solved. ... So to hear from Palestinians that there was not even a peace process, that things weren't fine, to hear them say, 'We're waiting for things to better,' then after a few years, 'We don't care, it's got to change, it's unbearable,' was shocking," says Golan.
"The message that we were hearing was that it was going to explode."
According to Golan, nobody wanted to hear that message, not even political tourists that she and her then-fiancé Nizar Kammal showed around the West Bank.
"They would say, 'Give it time'. You have time when your kids have a future, when you have hope. You have time when your life is bearable, and hope for yourself and your children, but in Palestine that didn't exist," recounts Golan.
That's when the second intifada started, and with it, the idea for the ISM.
"I thought the international community would be outraged at the systemic killing of unarmed [Palestinian] youths. I didn't believe they, or the Israeli community, would accept it. And we thought if we demonstrate, it could be stopped," said Golan.
"I don't think in my worst nightmare that here we are five years later, and it's become normal, that unarmed civilians are routinely shot dead."
Starting with vigils
Golan started by organising vigils in front of the prime minister's office, under the threat of attack by Jewish settlers.
Then the Israeli army began bombing the villages of Beit Sahur and Beit Jalla adjacent to Bethlehem, which later became a target itself.
Golan connected with a friend, Luisa Morgantini, from the European parliament, and put out a call on the internet for people to come join a series of actions supporting Palestinians.
"And what materialised from that was a march, the people of Beit Sahur with internationals, to the Israeli military base there that was bombing the area. We went armed with a letter to soldiers telling them to dismantle the base," Golan said.
Golan began to organise more protests and interventions, and one incident deepened her sense of responsibility to the movement.
A confrontation broke out between Israelis soldiers and Palestinian villagers who were trying to pass an Israeli checkpoint.
"Another Israeli and I stood in middle - between the Palestinians and the soldiers and settlers - and I believe it's because we were there that the soldiers didn't shoot, and the villagers were able to open the roadblock."
Child killed
The next day clashes broke out again, but this time Golan was not there. She later learned that a child from the village, one that she had seen and protected the day before, was killed by Israeli troops.
In December 2000, Golan joined forces with a Palestinian-American, Huweida Arraf, who was organising protests of her own, and Ghassan Andoni, professor of physics at Bir Zeit University and founder of IMEMC.org (International Middle East Media Centre).
Together, they chose the name International Solidarity Movement for their group and started the website www.Palsolidarity.org.
"If it wasn't the mutual dream of many people, [ISM] wouldn't have happened," Golan said.
Golan's activism has not come without costs.
In April 2001, she was arrested for chaining herself to Palestinian olive trees targeted by Israeli bulldozers. She spent three days in prison.
Golan has also had to contend with questioning and a trial because of her illegal presence in the West Bank. Israelis are forbidden to enter the Oslo-designated Area A, theoretically Palestinian-controlled, without permission from the Israeli army.
The fact that her husband is a Nablus resident does not exempt her from the prohibition. Likewise, Palestinians are forbidden from entering Israeli-controlled areas without a permit.
New role
"I always joke that we are illegal as a unit. There's nowhere we can reside legally. He can't be in Israel and I can't be in Area A. I have to sneak into Nablus and Ram Allah," says Golan.
After she gave birth to her children, Golan moved from participating in protests to media and legal support and cultural training with the ISM office.
During the training, newcomers are taught tactics of non-violent resistance.
"We teach them how not to get shot, for example," she says.
In some cases, participation in the ISM has cost the lives of the activists.
Two volunteers, Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall, who were stationed in Rafah in the southern end of the Gaza Strip, were killed by Israeli forces despite clear markers indicating their civilian status in April 2003.
Corrie, whom Golan trained, was crushed by an armoured Israeli bulldozer, and Hurndall was shot by an Israeli sniper in the back of his head as he was protecting Palestinian children who were under fire in Rafah.
The soldier who shot Hurndall was convicted of manslaughter in a rare military court ruling and faces up to 20 years in prison when he is sentenced in August.
Activists barred
One other volunteer, Brian Avery, was critically wounded by Israeli machine-gun fire the same year. He has taken his case to the Israeli High Court of Justice, demanding that the Israeli military investigate his shooting.
Shortly after the deaths, Israel decided to bar pro-Palestinian activists from entering the country and has tried to expel many of those present.
More than 80 ISM activists have been arrested, and hundreds have been denied entry.
The deportation was a problem that they could deal with, says Golan, but denial of entry as was another matter, involving "serious intelligence work".
Anyone known to be coming to the occupied territories for any kind of solidarity or human rights work was a target.
"It makes coming here a lot more difficult and costly. They claim we are 'terrorist tourists', even that we are funded by the Palestinian Authority or the CIA," Golan says.
Harvest campaign
But Golan says that won't stop them. The ISM is planning Freedom Summer 2005, a 57-day campaign (one for every year of displacement and dispossession since 1948) against the Israeli occupation.
After that, an olive harvest campaign is planned in which foreign activists help Palestinian villagers safely harvest their crops.
The group continues to support non-violent anti-wall protests in the villages of Bilin, Beit Surik and Salfit as well as help protect Palestinian communities suffering from settler and military violence in the Hebron enclave of Qawawis.
"A lot of people in the world are not comfortable with the equation that your blood may be worth more than someone else's," Golan says.
"But that is the reality. And to me, that is definitely the new anti-Semitism: anti-Arab, anti-Muslim sentiment."
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| Cyrus King |
the zionists are at it again.. what they do best.. STEAL STEAL STEAL. It runs in their dirty blood. Why cant these filthy zio's just listen to the majority of their population and stop building settlements.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nue...lim_quarter.htm |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
the zionists are at it again.. what they do best.. STEAL STEAL STEAL. It runs in their dirty blood. Why cant these filthy zio's just listen to the majority of their population and stop building settlements.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nue...lim_quarter.htm |
In other news Jews built a gas station near Vatican City in Rome, a particularly Catholic neighborhood.:rolleyes: |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
In other news Jews built a gas station near Vatican City in Rome, a particularly Catholic neighborhood.:rolleyes: |
Are they gonna blow it up or summat?! Settle old scores with the pope?! |
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| sabi10 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
the zionists are at it again.. what they do best.. STEAL STEAL STEAL. It runs in their dirty blood. Why cant these filthy zio's just listen to the majority of their population and stop building settlements.
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Anyone said HITLER or natzis....?
I think that we should get out of gaza.. but i'm not going to answer to you cause i know what runs in your dirty blood you little natzi mtf.
but you know what.. i hope that you wont feel what we in israel feel in the last 5 years, and i hope that no one on earth will feel that! |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
Are they gonna blow it up or summat?! Settle old scores with the pope?! |
:stongue: :stongue:
they got my vote :p |
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| LazFX |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
the zionists are at it again.. what they do best.. STEAL STEAL STEAL. It runs in their dirty blood. Why cant these filthy zio's just listen to the majority of their population and stop building settlements.
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/nue...lim_quarter.htm |
Filthy Zio's?? How about the filthy pals that are destined to screw this up!! Does it hurt bieng so ignorant?? |
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