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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 8)
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
First, the United Nations was not competent under international law to partition or otherwise dispose of the territory of Palestine against the wishes of the clear majority of its inhabitants. Although Palestine, in 1947, was still subject to a mandate that had legally terminated as a result of the dissolution of the League of Nations, it did not affect its statehood or the sovereignty of its people, so the question of its future government was a matter that fell exclusively within its own domestic jurisdiction and could not become subject to adjudication by the United Nations. The United Nations did not possess any sovereignty nor did it exercise any other right over Palestine. It therefore had no power to partition Palestine or to assign any part of its territory to a religious minority comprised mostly of recent European immigrants in order that they might establish a state of their own.
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Since when have the wishes of the majority of inhabitants in a province have any kind determiniation whatsoever of the administration/jurisdiction of a particular province? The last I checked the heads of states or administrators did not answer to colonists when it came to sales of territories such as the Louisiana purchase or Russian Alaska. If that's the case than ANY part of the Palestinain west bank or gaza strip can choose to secede to Israel or an independant state should it choose to do so.
Furthermore, the Arab contigent/rule of Palestine agreed to partition the region in accordance with gauruntees of their own independance:
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The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement
January 1919
His Royal Highness the Emir FAISAL, representing and acting on behalf of the Arab Kingdom of HEJAZ, AND Dr. Chaim Weizmann, representing and acting on behalf of the Zionist Organization, mindful of the racial kinship and ancient bonds existing between the Arabs and the Jewish people, and realising that the surest means of working out the consummation of their national aspirations, is through the closest possible collaboration in the development of the Arab State and Palestine, and being desirous further of confirming the good understanding which exists between them, have agreed upon the following articles:
Article I
The Arab State and Palestine in all their relations and undertakings shall be controlled by the most cordial goodwill and understanding and to this end Arab and Jewish duly accredited agents shall be established and maintained in their respective territories.
Article II
Immediately following the completion of deliberations of the Peace Conference, the definite boundaries between the Arab State and Palestine shall be determined by a commission to be agreed upon by the parties hereto.
Article III
In the establishment of the Constitution and Administration of Palestine all such measures shall be adopted as will afford the fullest guarantees for carrying into effect the British Government’s Declaration of the 2nd of November, 1917 (Balfour Declaration-SEH).
Article IV
All necessary measures will be taken to encourage and stimulate immigration of Jews into Palestine on a large scale, and as quickly as possible to settle Jewish immigrants upon the land through closer settlement and intensive cultivation of the soil. In taking such measures the Arab peasants and tenant farmers shall be protected in their rights, and shall be assisted in forwarding their economic development.
Article V
No regulation or law shall be made prohibiting or interfering in any way with the free exercise of religion; and further the free exercise and expression of religious profession and worship without discrimination or preference shall for ever be allowed. No religious test shall ever be required for the exercise of civil or religious rights.
Article VI
The Mohammedan Holy Places shall be under Mohammedan control.
Article VII
The Zionist Organization proposes to send to Palestine a Commission of experts to make a survey of the economic possibilities of the country, and to report upon the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will place the aforementioned Commission at the disposal of the Arab State for the purpose of a survey of the economic possibilities of the Arab State and to report on the best means for its development. The Zionist Organization will use its best efforts to assist the Arab State in providing the means for developing the natural resources and economic possibilities thereof.
Article VIII
The parties hereto agree to act in complete accord and harmony in all matters embraced herein before the Peace Congress.
Article IX
Any matters of dispute which may arise between the contracting parties shall be referred to the British Government for arbitration.
Given under our hand at LONDON, ENGLAND, the Third DAY OF January, one thousand Nine Hundred and Nineteen.
Provided the Arabs obtain their independence as demanded in my Memorandum dated the 4th of January, 1919, to the Foreign Office of the Government of Great Britain, I shall concur in the above articles. But if the slightest modification or departure were to be made. I shall not then be bound by a single word of the present Agreement which shall be deemed void and of no account or validity, and I shall not be answerable in any way whatsoever.
FAISAL IBN HUSAIN
CHAIM WEIZMANN
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Second, the Partition Plan has no legal validity. The Partition Plan was adopted by the General Assembly, not the Security Council. Resolutions of the General Assembly have the force of recommendations to member states of the United Nations but do not have any mandatory force. Therefore, the General Assembly vote to accept the recommendations of UNSCOP to partition Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state did not mean that one or another state was being created over the objections of one of the parties.
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Certainly ... and under the same regard, the Palestinains had no legal validity to possess territory under the partition since there was no vote by the security council ...
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The partition plan also violated a very basic principle in international affairs: that of self-determination of peoples, recognised by Article 1 of the United Nations Charter. The carving-out of 55 percent of Palestine for the creation of a Jewish state and the subjection of part of the original inhabitants (who were not Jewish) to its dominion represents a blatant violation of this principle.
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Self-determinism was acheived in accordance with nation in possession of the land.
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Third, the Partition Plan was neither just nor fair. The Partition Plan granted 55 percent of Palestine to the Jews, who at that time comprised only 30 percent of the population, and who owned a mere 6 percent of the land. Within this Jewish state were to have been 407,000 Palestinian Arabs. The Arab state was to comprise only the remaining 34 percent of the land. The major reason the Palestinians rejected the partition resolution was on the grounds of its lack of fairness: it proposed to give the minority population an exclusive and hegemonic right to the majority of the land.
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Remember, the original mandate included Trans-Jordan as well. However, due to British exclusion of Trans-Jordan with respect to any Jewish settlements under the balfour agreement, only 23% of the total mandate was selected. Of that 23%, 56% was allocated to a Jewish state. Of the areas, the Jewish state was composed of 75% desert. The population was to be approximately 500,000 jews vs. 325,000 Arabs. The arab state would have 807,000 Arabs and 10,000 Jews. Jerusalem would have a roughly even population.
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The Jewish population was composed primarily of foreign-born immigrants, originating mostly from Poland, Russia and Central Europe. Only one third of these immigrants had acquired Palestinian citizenship (Government of Palestine, Statistical Abstract, 1944-1945, p. 42). |
And by 1952 over a third of the Jews were Arab Jews ... |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Now you're getting ahead of yourself. What "communal war" broke out the next day? What expulsions were carried out the "next day"? While Begin may have rejected the partition Ben-Gurion firmly established that Israel would accept the partition. And the Israeli declaration of Independance did not come until after 6 months of the UN partition plan. Additionally you fail to mention Arab irregulars who took initiative to attack Jewish settlements and convoys especially along the Jerusalem road.
Ok so what offenses did the Hagana embark upon? Are you trying to tell me that the Arab league mobilizations were NOT dependant upon the UN partition plan??? Let me remind you that it was only on May 14 that Ben-Gurion proclaimed the state of Israel to exist within the boundaries provided by UNSCOP and plans were drawn up by the Arab League in April and carried out in May after the declaration and after the partition plan. They were NOT in response to any attacks by LEHI or Irgun attacks.
As of 1914 perhaps, but as of 1914 there was no discernable "palestinian" population.
And 20% of the arable land. They got far less particularly with Jerusalem when the lines were drawn.
The general vote was 33 to 13 ... the Soviets even voted for the partition.
Well in a similar situation, there would be no America, Israel, or Palestine. There was no soverign country in the region prior to 1948. |
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I wrote a big response to this and it got deleted. this. Go to www.palestineremembered.com for massive amount of information on the 1947-48 war. Use the FAQ section! Yes the Hagannah did take part in expulsions and also look up Plan Dalet. Deir Yassin also sparked fear and people to flee for their lives. Also, there was a descernable Palestinian population for centuries, let's not get into denial.
In the website you can check out photos and a profile on every town that was destroyed by Zionist forces. I highly recommend you use it.
www.palestineremembered.com |
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| Sand Leaper |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
I wrote a big response to this and it got deleted. |
:conf: |
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| borron |
These discussions are very interesting, but they are nothing but theoritical.
In the meantime, more pal's are dying, more houses are being destroyed and hate is pilling up.
I've said it before and i'll say it again - Israel will not get away with this, as someone with a little intelligence is able to perceive. Palestinians will not simply forget this, so there will be more dead israeli soldiers, more attacks on jewish settlements, more spontaneos attacks (pal's picking up weapons and shooting their israeli neighbours) and more suicide bombings in buses.
Israelis are so stupid - they can't understand that leaving the palestinians alone, living in their own land (Gaza and West Bank) is in their own interest.
By the way, do any of you pro-israelis know that the first suicide bombers were jews in the British palestine fighting for their independence? So what do you have to say about that, huh? |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
I wrote a big response to this and it got deleted. this. Go to www.palestineremembered.com for massive amount of information on the 1947-48 war. Use the FAQ section! Yes the Hagannah did take part in expulsions and also look up Plan Dalet. Deir Yassin also sparked fear and people to flee for their lives.
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Yes and let's not forget the large scale assaults from Arab irregular forces which commenced as early as Januwary of 1948. The Hagannah started going on the offensive in April by capturing Tiberias, Haifa, Safed, and Acre. The goal was to capture the portions alloted to a Jewish state under the partition plan.
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Also, there was a descernable Palestinian population for centuries, let's not get into denial.
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I'm not saying that there was no discernable arab population inhabiting the region. I'm saying that there was no discernable "Palestinian" population in 1914. The calls for the establishment of a Palestinian independant state, as opposed to an annexation onto Jordan or Sryia, only gathered steam until later. |
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| Shakka |
| Occrider, you are posting some very educational information here and are defending your position admirably. Nice work.;) |
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| occrider |
| quote: | Originally posted by Shakka
Occrider, you are posting some very educational information here and are defending your position admirably. Nice work.;) |
Meh ... I took a couple classes on the Arab Israeli conflict/origins way back when I was actually considering being a history major. It was good because we tended to focus on primary documents with no analysis (it was our job to do the analysis). I usually avoid the Isr/Pal discussions however ... both sides have good arguments to support their causes and it's useless trying to convince one side that there is another side when both parties are too impassioned on the subject. Anyway this will be my yearly contribution to the Israeli/Pal debate ... I hate discussing this topic. |
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| Yoepus |
hey guys sorry if I'm not posting.
Don't take it as I actually agree with the Palestinian arguments or anything crazy like that.
It just started poorly so I thought I would ignore it.. seems like its picking up.
Oh well, I'm not really in the Isra-Pale debate mood these past few days.
Don't worry I'll catch up on the next Isra-Pale thread :D
edit: i listened to shaka and quit double posting :p |
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| Shakka |
| Hey, you--quit double posting! |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by occrider
Yes and let's not forget the large scale assaults from Arab irregular forces which commenced as early as Januwary of 1948. The Hagannah started going on the offensive in April by capturing Tiberias, Haifa, Safed, and Acre. The goal was to capture the portions alloted to a Jewish state under the partition plan. |
I never denied any assaults from Arab forces. The assaults were initiated by the Arab Higher Committee under the Mufti. As a matter of fact, the Palestinians were winning at the beginning of the war. Palestinians had already began to flee the country for their safety from the beginning. On April 9, Deir Yassin village was massacred by the Zionists and this caused a mass exodus of Palestinians afraid for their lives. 400 villages were subsequently destroyed with dozens of massacres. Did you also know that the Hagannah used recordings of screams from trucks outside villages to scare people away. The Zionist leaders quickly realized that expulsion was good for the Jewish state. The goal wasn't simply to capture the portions alloted to a Jewish state but to also end up with as small a Palestinian minority as possible. Expulsion and compulsory transfer was discussed many times with the Zionist leaders who often preferred it and found no other way of establishing an independent Jewish state.
| quote: | | I'm not saying that there was no discernable arab population inhabiting the region. I'm saying that there was no discernable "Palestinian" population in 1914. The calls for the establishment of a Palestinian independant state, as opposed to an annexation onto Jordan or Sryia, only gathered steam until later. |
I know what you're saying. And I'm telling you that there was a discernable Palestinian population for centuries. I know there wasn't a call for an establishment of a Palestinian state until the 20th century but there was always a Palestinian population that labelled themselves as Palestinians.
Jewish immigrants were Europeans who colonized Palestine and demanded a state on land that was already inhabited by Palestinians. I see no reason for Palestinians to have accepted living under a Jewish state. I wouldn't have accepted. It wouldn't make sense. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by borron
I've said it before and i'll say it again - Israel will not get away with this, as someone with a little intelligence is able to perceive. Palestinians will not simply forget this, |
Isn't that what you said when that Hamas leader... ahh I can't remeber what happened to him.. but something happened to a Hamas leader... hmm I wonder if somebody remembers what happened :rolleyes:
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By the way, do any of you pro-israelis know that the first suicide bombers were jews in the British palestine fighting for their independence? So what do you have to say about that, huh? |
I'll have to say the following: "Prove it!"
gee I said I'd stay out of it but...
you can now resume to your regular propaganda.
oh and Occrider, you right-wing zionist bastard you!
You cut the zionist mustard!:disbelief |
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