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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 109)
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by zig
You know what im referring too, or does it have to be spelt out more clearly for you to understand, but no, there is not much point in that, because your head is so brainwashed, there is little point in having a conversation at all because of your continued denial of Israels role in the decades long oppression of the Palestinians, and until you accept Israels role in this, there is little point in having a conversation with you, at any meaningful level.Because you, like so many in this thread give standard replies, like you are all reading from the same script. |
:mad:
Semmer down now, seemer down now.
Ya I know what you were reffering to, you think it is largely the fault of Israel that the Palestinians can't make a living for themselves. And you know exactly what I was refering to to by my comment, that the Palestinians are mostly to blame for the situation they have but themselves in.
Israel has not continually oppressed the Palestinians for decades, it has occupied "them", and yes there is a difference.
And no, Israel is not the reason that the Palestinians are stupid and poor, much like the rest of the Arab world it is there own fault.
Syria has an unemployment rate of 20% abd GDP per Capita of $3,400. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Saudi Arabia has an unemployment rate of 25% and GDP per Capita of $12,000. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Jordan has an unemploiyment rate of 30% and GDP Per capita of $4,500. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Israel has the highest GDP per capita in the region of $20,800 yet with high unemployment of 10.4%, is this the fault of decades of Arab wars, terror attacks, and oppression?
source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...ields/2129.html
and http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2004rank.html
The Palestinians must take responsibility for their actions.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - Newton.
The Palestinians have still not learned this and refuse to take responsibility for their political actions or rather blunders.
If you can not tolerate the reaction, don't take the action.
A Shadow Falls Over Hope – We brought dreams for a bright economic future; Arafat quashed them
By Glenn Yago
April 22, 2002
please read: link: http://www.milkeninstitute.org/publ...ID=214&cat=Arts
Arafat is known to have stolen $1-3 billion dollars from the Palestinians.
sources:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain582487.shtml
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dai...2002081603.html
Considering that the GDP for the West Bank and Gaza is $768 million
source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...os/gz.html#Econ
Over ten years (from 1993-2003) that would be a total GDP for all the years of 7.6 billion dollars. If we assume Arafat's share to be 3 billion, that means he stole 40% of the Palestinian economy. If just one billion thats 13% of the economy, still not very pretty.
Arafat was not a businessman or captain of industry, he was never anything but a politican and terrorist. It is indisputable that he could never amast such a fortune in legtimate ways.
Now you'd be suprised, but many Palestinians would agree with me:
When asked "Do you think there is corruption in the Palestinian Authority? (June 2004)". 90% answered yes, and 89% agreeing that this was corruption to an important degree.
More than half believe the Palestinian Authorithy is not concerned with improving infastructure (46% vs 40% on the question Do you think the Palestinian leadership are concerned with having serious/acts improvements?)
40% see improvement initiatives that the PA is trying as not serious, while 40% don't beleive they can be serious in the current environment.
52% of Palestinians believe economic difficulties are the biggest difficulties they face, behind security at 25%, and political at 21%
Source:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...structure2.html
The CIA's overview of the economic situation of the territories:
| quote: |
High population density, limited land access, and strict internal and external controls have kept economic conditions in the Gaza Strip - the smaller of the two areas under the Palestinian Authority - even more degraded than in the West Bank. An anticipated Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip in 2005 may offer some medium-term opportunities for economic growth. The beginning of the second intifadah in September 2000 sparked an economic downturn, largely the result of Israeli closure policies; these policies, which were imposed in response to security interests in Israel, disrupted labor and commodity relationships with the Gaza Strip. In 2001, and even more severely in 2003, Israeli military measures in Palestinian Authority areas resulted in the destruction of much capital plant, the disruption of administrative structure, and widespread business closures. Including the West Bank, the UN estimates that more than 100,000 Palestinians out of the 125,000 who used to work in Israel or in joint industrial zones have lost their jobs. International aid of $2 billion to Gaza Strip and the West Bank in 2004 prevented the complete collapse of the economy and allowed some reforms in the government's financial operations. Meanwhile unemployment has continued at half the labor force. ARAFAT's death in 2004 leaves open more political options that could affect the economy.
source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...os/gz.html#Econ |
Sure the Palestinians have a crap-economy. Is Israel to blame? Only as much as I am to be blamed for striking back at a guy who trys to punch the lights out of me.
Yes, indirectly, and recationarly Israel is to be blamed for the failure of the Palestnian economy's failure. But thats like saying the USA is to be blamed for the recent world's recession because they had a Dot Com bubble.
Perhaps you should be the one educating yourself :rolleyes: Afterall I am just brainwashed :mad:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html
You should really read the entire article, but here are some important bits:
| quote: |
...Prior to the 1967 war, fewer than 60 percent of all male adults had been employed, with unemployment among refugees running as high as 83 percent. Within a brief period after the war, Israeli occupation had led to dramatic improvements in general well-being, placing the population of the territories ahead of most of their Arab neighbors.
In the economic sphere, most of this progress was the result of access to the far larger and more advanced Israeli economy: the number of Palestinians working in Israel rose from zero in 1967 to 66,000 in 1975 and 109,000 by 1986, accounting for 35 percent of the employed population of the West Bank and 45 percent in Gaza. Close to 2,000 industrial plants, employing almost half of the work force, were established in the territories under Israeli rule.
During the 1970's, the West Bank and Gaza constituted the fourth fastest-growing economy in the world-ahead of such "wonders" as Singapore, Hong Kong, and Korea, and substantially ahead of Israel itself. Although GNP per capita grew somewhat more slowly, the rate was still high by international standards, with per-capita GNP expanding tenfold between 1968 and 1991 from $165 to $1,715 (compared with Jordan's $1,050, Egypt's $600, Turkey's $1,630, and Tunisia's $1,440). By 1999, Palestinian per-capita income was nearly double Syria's, more than four times Yemen's, and 10 percent higher than Jordan's (one of the betteroff Arab states). Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.
Under Israeli rule, the Palestinians also made vast progress in social welfare. Perhaps most significantly, mortality rates in the West Bank and Gaza fell by more than two-thirds between 1970 and 1990, while life expectancy rose from 48 years in 1967 to 72 in 2000 (compared with an average of 68 years for all the countries of the Middle East and North Africa). Israeli medical programs reduced the infant-mortality rate of 60 per 1,000 live births in 1968 to 15 per 1,000 in 2000 (in Iraq the rate is 64, in Egypt 40, in Jordan 23, in Syria 22). And under a systematic program of inoculation, childhood diseases like polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and measles were eradicated.
No less remarkable were advances in the Palestinians' standard of living. By 1986, 92.8 percent of the population in the West Bank and Gaza had electricity around the clock, as compared to 20.5 percent in 1967; 85 percent had running water in dwellings, as compared to 16 percent in 1967; 83.5 percent had electric or gas ranges for cooking, as compared to 4 percent in 1967; and so on for refrigerators, televisions, and cars.
Finally, and perhaps most strikingly, during the two decades preceding the intifada of the late 1980's, the number of schoolchildren in the territories grew by 102 percent, and the number of classes by 99 percent, though the population itself had grown by only 28 percent. Even more dramatic was the progress in higher education. At the time of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, not a single university existed in these territories. By the early 1990's, there were seven such institutions, boasting some 16,500 students. Illiteracy rates dropped to 14 percent of adults over age 15, compared with 69 percent in Morocco, 61 percent in Egypt, 45 percent in Tunisia, and 44 percent in Syria. |
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| zig |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
:mad:
Semmer down now, seemer down now.
Ya I know what you were reffering to, you think it is largely the fault of Israel that the Palestinians can't make a living for themselves. And you know exactly what I was refering to to by my comment, that the Palestinians are mostly to blame for the situation they have but themselves in.
Israel has not continually oppressed the Palestinians for decades, it has occupied "them", and yes there is a difference.
And no, Israel is not the reason that the Palestinians are stupid and poor, much like the rest of the Arab world it is there own fault.
Syria has an unemployment rate of 20% abd GDP per Capita of $3,400. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Saudi Arabia has an unemployment rate of 25% and GDP per Capita of $12,000. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Jordan has an unemploiyment rate of 30% and GDP Per capita of $4,500. Is this the fault of decades of Israeli occupation?
Israel has the highest GDP per capita in the region of $20,800 yet with high unemployment of 10.4%, is this the fault of decades of Arab wars, terror attacks, and oppression?
source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...ields/2129.html
and http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...r/2004rank.html
The Palestinians must take responsibility for their actions.
"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" - Newton.
The Palestinians have still not learned this and refuse to take responsibility for their political actions or rather blunders.
If you can not tolerate the reaction, don't take the action.
A Shadow Falls Over Hope – We brought dreams for a bright economic future; Arafat quashed them
By Glenn Yago
April 22, 2002
please read: link: http://www.milkeninstitute.org/publ...ID=214&cat=Arts
Arafat is known to have stolen $1-3 billion dollars from the Palestinians.
sources:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003...ain582487.shtml
http://www.arabicnews.com/ansub/Dai...2002081603.html
Considering that the GDP for the West Bank and Gaza is $768 million
source: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications...os/gz.html#Econ
Over ten years (from 1993-2003) that would be a total GDP for all the years of 7.6 billion dollars. If we assume Arafat's share to be 3 billion, that means he stole 40% of the Palestinian economy. If just one billion thats 13% of the economy, still not very pretty.
Arafat was not a businessman or captain of industry, he was never anything but a politican and terrorist. It is indisputable that he could never amast such a fortune in legtimate ways.
Now you'd be suprised, but many Palestinians would agree with me:
When asked "Do you think there is corruption in the Palestinian Authority? (June 2004)". 90% answered yes, and 89% agreeing that this was corruption to an important degree.
More than half believe the Palestinian Authorithy is not concerned with improving infastructure (46% vs 40% on the question Do you think the Palestinian leadership are concerned with having serious/acts improvements?)
40% see improvement initiatives that the PA is trying as not serious, while 40% don't beleive they can be serious in the current environment.
52% of Palestinians believe economic difficulties are the biggest difficulties they face, behind security at 25%, and political at 21%
Source:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...structure2.html
The CIA's overview of the economic situation of the territories:
Sure the Palestinians have a crap-economy. Is Israel to blame? Only as much as I am to be blamed for striking back at a guy who trys to punch the lights out of me.
Yes, indirectly, and recationarly Israel is to be blamed for the failure of the Palestnian economy's failure. But thats like saying the USA is to be blamed for the recent world's recession because they had a Dot Com bubble.
Perhaps you should be the one educating yourself :rolleyes: Afterall I am just brainwashed :mad:
http://www.palestinefacts.org/what_occupation.html
You should really read the entire article, but here are some important bits: |
Before i get into the substantive issues raised in your post, answer me one question first.
Why does Israel control and curb the water supply to Palestine, if not for reasons of economic deprevation and control of the population at large......and dont answer because we own it.....because Israel historically does not and never has...... |
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| shaolin_Z |
OCCUPATION --> OPPRESION
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| shaolin_Z |
Israeli agression:
| quote: |
Israeli Troops Raid Palestinian Town
JERUSALEM - Israeli troops staged a brief raid Sunday into Tulkarem, re-entering the northern West Bank town for the first time since returning it to Palestinian control in March. Palestinian officials condemned the incursion as a violation of agreements between the two sides. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by zig
Before i get into the substantive issues raised in your post, answer me one question first. |
Ok I will try.
| quote: |
Why does Israel control and curb the water supply to Palestine, if not for reasons of economic deprevation and control of the population at large......and dont answer because we own it.....because Israel historically does not and never has...... |
I do not know that this happens. Please provide me a credible source on the matter.
Israel also does supply the Palestinians with telephone, electricty, medical care. It also used to provide education, security, and civil adminstration. The Palestinians are not a sovereign entity (afterall that is what the peace plan is), under occupation Israel is entitled to provide the occupied with such infastructure under interpertation of Geneva IV.
Right now out of a purely ecological perspective it is a good thing most water sources are under Israeli adminstration simply because otherwise they would be no more than running sewage unacceptable for use by anyone.
I don't know of one non-tactical case that Israel has curbed the Palestniian water supply, so then again I can't answer your question. If you are trying to imply that Israel is doing this to preserve its strategic water resources since water is simply so scare in the area then you are mistaken.
Under the peace treaty with Jordan, Israel supplies Jordian industry and farmers with a considerable amount of water from the Israeli lake, Kinert, at great cost to itself. Israel has become water dependent, and imports now around 10% of its annual water intake from its neighborhood water-rich ally, Turkey.
Much of this water finds its way into Palestinian pipes and homes at no cost to the Palestinians, but at cost to Israel. Most of the Palestinian areas are not water rich (most water coming from the North, the lake Kinert, and the costal aquifer), and Israel does supply the Palestinians with water on its own dime. |
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| Yoepus |
Zig,
Just a suggestion, if you want to actually debate this it might be wise to move this off into its own thread.... otherwise I have a feeling it will get bad quick. |
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| Abhay |
Yeah,
any wit can go on Google, and grab articles on the Palestian vs Israel conflict. THere's millions of them...
Guys, stop being cheap, and come up with your own opinions and backings, this thread isn't supposed to be a database of palestian/Isreal conflict articles.
my two cents,
;) |
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| ogvh5150 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Please provide me a credible source on the matter. |
| quote: | Originally posted by Abhay
Guys, stop being cheap, and come up with your own opinions and backings, this thread isn't supposed to be a database of palestian/Isreal conflict articles.
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Then people will just be talking out of their own conviction rather than have a supportive argument.
The value of a debate depends on the facts presented. If articles found on Google support ones side, no matter how right or wrong they are, the more knowledgeable we all are.
If people want to use expletives and show us just how smart they can be then that's a different story.
This is the "palestian/Isreal conflict articles" thread after all. If people can keep from killing each other by staying in tune to boards like this, the better we all are. |
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| zig |
| @ Yoepus.......sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier, i have been incredably busy working, and just havent had time to reply, i havent posted here all week.......ill get back to this topic in a few days when my head and body get back to normal......for now im just going to chill, and just dont feel like getting into a debate so ill post in this thread later......k:) |
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| dj_ilan_yosef |
| Israel is the best... there is no Palestine and if there was it would suck anyways -- end of debate :clown: |
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| dj_ilan_yosef |
| quote: | Originally posted by zig
@ Yoepus.......sorry for not getting back to this thread earlier, i have been incredably busy working, and just havent had time to reply, i havent posted here all week.......ill get back to this topic in a few days when my head and body get back to normal......for now im just going to chill, and just dont feel like getting into a debate so ill post in this thread later......k:) |
yea yea yea... your bull is no match for TRUTH -- take a much longer break and dont even try to argue Yoepus -- Don't say i didn't warn you kid. |
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| Abhay |
| quote: | Originally posted by ogvh5150
Then people will just be talking out of their own conviction rather than have a supportive argument.
The value of a debate depends on the facts presented. If articles found on Google support ones side, no matter how right or wrong they are, the more knowledgeable we all are.
If people want to use expletives and show us just how smart they can be then that's a different story.
This is the "palestian/Isreal conflict articles" thread after all. If people can keep from killing each other by staying in tune to boards like this, the better we all are. |
Supportive arguements come from RELIABLE SOURCES... not a random hit from google... |
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