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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 63)
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by George Smiley
I'm boycotting Chomsky...never read anything of his and never will (its not that I dont think what he says wont be valid or interesting, its just the type of people that use his point of view for every argument they have that really get on my !!) |
Understandable. But that alone should give you every reason to read his stuff and check out his lectures. You're really missing out on one of the greatest intellectuals ever dude. Chomsky's appeal are his arguments based on facts and common sense. Which is why his adversaries have never been able to take his arguments apart and just put labels on him (no, I'm not saying you're doing that). |
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| Palestinian |
Ok, so Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. The problem with Zionism is quite simple though. It aims to create its state on land already inhabited by Palestinian Arabs. You can have self determination but don't create your state on the ground I live on. That's why Zionism is racist. It doesn't take the Palestinians into account.
The 1948 War was preceded by communal violence that started right after UN Resolution 181 was passed in November of 1947. The Arab armies that invaded on May 16, 1948 were ill equiped, still using outdated weapons from the Ottoman era and they also lacked a coherent leadership. Moreover, Transjordan and Iraq were only looking to carve out a piece of Palestine for Transjordan, they were not seriously interested in the rights of the Palestinians. During and after the war, the Zionists destroyed over 400 Palestinian villages in order to create the Jewish state with a majority Jewish population. If the expulsions and massacres didn't take place, the Arabs would have quickly become the majority in the Jewish state. Therefore it was only logical to expel them. It wouldn't make sense not to. 700,000 Palestinians became refugees as a result, and not allowing them their right to return is considered expulsion. |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Cyrus King
Are you sure im not a german nazi? |
Cyrus himself said this....
And Floster....go floss cyrus's ass.....
PUTO..
:D |
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| Escobar |
| quote: | Originally posted by Palestinian
Ok, so Zionism is the national liberation movement of the Jewish people. The problem with Zionism is quite simple though. It aims to create its state on land already inhabited by Palestinian Arabs. You can have self determination but don't create your state on the ground I live on. That's why Zionism is racist. It doesn't take the Palestinians into account.
The 1948 War was preceded by communal violence that started right after UN Resolution 181 was passed in November of 1947. The Arab armies that invaded on May 16, 1948 were ill equiped, still using outdated weapons from the Ottoman era and they also lacked a coherent leadership. Moreover, Transjordan and Iraq were only looking to carve out a piece of Palestine for Transjordan, they were not seriously interested in the rights of the Palestinians. During and after the war, the Zionists destroyed over 400 Palestinian villages in order to create the Jewish state with a majority Jewish population. If the expulsions and massacres didn't take place, the Arabs would have quickly become the majority in the Jewish state. Therefore it was only logical to expel them. It wouldn't make sense not to. 700,000 Palestinians became refugees as a result, and not allowing them their right to return is considered expulsion. |
Palestinian, take the time to read ALL that I will write. Give me an educated response...
Israel is a Jewish state with a large Arab minority. This minority, some 20 percent of the population, has equal rights under the law and enjoys all personal freedoms, including freedom of religion and worship.
However, the State of Israel is a Jewish state, established as the independent state of the Jewish people exercising the right of self-determination in the Land of Israel, its ancestral homeland.
Israel is also a Jewish state according to international undertakings and resolutions, including the Balfour Declaration, in which the British Government undertook to establish a national home for the Jewish people in Palestine; and UN Resolution 181 of November 29, 1947, in which the General Assembly resolved to terminate the British Mandate over Palestine ( Israel) and to establish two states there, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted the resolution joyfully and, when the Mandate lapsed, David Ben-Gurion declared "the establishment of the Jewish state in Eretz Israel, to be known as the State of Israel".
Israel's Declaration of Independence pledged to maintain a democratic Jewish state that would ensure equality irrespective of religion, race, sex, or nationality. This pledge has withstood the test of reality to this day.
The Palestinian refugee problem has been a difficult social and humanitarian issue in the Middle East for over 50 years. The immediate cause of the problem was the Arabs' rejection in 1947 of UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - which would have partitioned the British Mandate area into an Arab state and a Jewish state - and the resulting war started by the Arabs in the hope of destroying the nascent Israeli state. Many Palestinian Arabs who lived in areas where the fighting took place abandoned their homes, either at the request of Arab leaders, or due to fear of the fighting or the uncertainty of living under Jewish rule. A refugee problem would not have been created had this war not been forced upon Israel by the Arab countries and the local Arab leadership.
The Arab countries, with the sole exception of Jordan, have perpetuated the refugee problem to serve as a weapon in their struggle against Israel. The refugees continue to live in crowded camps, in poverty and despair. No attempt was made to integrate them into the various countries and communities in the region. Hundreds of thousands of refugees remain today in a number of Arab countries with no political, economic or social rights.
The fate of the Palestinian refugees stands in sharp contrast to that of the many Jews who were forced to flee Arab countries in the wake of the establishment of the State of Israel, leaving behind a great deal of property for which they were not compensated. It should be remembered there was at least an equal number of Jewish refugees who left Arab countries as Palestinian refugees who fled Israel. These refugees were absorbed and rehabilitated as citizens with full rights within the State of Israel.
Sadly, during this period there were innumerable refugees fleeing wars and conflict in many parts of the world. Almost all of these were resettled and their lives rehabilitated. The sole exception remains the Palestinians, deliberately kept as refugees for political aims.
Israel does not bear responsibility for the creation or the perpetuation of the Palestinian refugee problem. Thus it cannot declare, even as a gesture, responsibility for the problem.
Although the Arab states originally rejected UN General Assembly Resolution 194 of December 1948, they now claim that this resolution offers the refugees a "right of return" to Israel. However, the relevant section of the resolution (paragraph 11) clearly does not recognize a right of return, but merely recommends that refugees should be permitted to return. Moreover, when referring to this resolution, a number of points should be remembered:
The resolution does not state that there is an unconditional "right" of return. On the contrary, it sets certain preconditions and limits for return, foremost among them that the refugees must be willing to live in peace with their neighbors.
The resolution specifically uses the general term "refugees" and not "Arab refugees", thereby indicating that the resolution is aimed at all refugees, both Jewish and Arab. It should be remembered that following the establishment of Israel in 1948, at least an equal number of Jewish residents of Arab states were forced to become refugees.
The resolution stipulates that compensation for refugees who chose not to return, or whose property was damaged or destroyed, should be provided "by the governments or authorities responsible". The demand for compensation does not specify Israel by name, and it is clear that the use of the plural (governments) precludes any Palestinian claim that implementation of the resolution should fall exclusively on Israel.
Resolution 194 aims at the achievement of a "final settlement of all questions outstanding" between the sides. Paragraph 11, which discusses the issue of return and compensation, is just one of 15 paragraphs in the resolution, and therefore cannot be implemented independently of the rest of the resolution, as the Arab states have always demanded.
General Assembly resolutions on political matters are not legally binding on the sides.
In summary, the Palestinians have selectively used elements of Resolution 194 that offer political and rhetorical benefits. At the same time, other material aspects of the issues involved have been ignored.
Under present demographic-geographic conditions, the influx of a large number of refugees into Israel is most certainly not practicable. Given that the present population of Israel is only 6.5 million (of whom approximately 20 percent are Arab Israelis), the influx of millions of Palestinians into the State of Israel would threaten the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.
Finally, in the course of the peace process, the Israelis and Palestinians themselves have agreed that the question of refugees, along with other issues, could be considered as part of a permanent settlement between the sides. Israel stands by this commitment. It is, thus, inappropriate for this issue to be raised in this forum.
furthermore, Palestinian, you seem to be an educated person, so maybe it is time for you to take the other side into account aswell. The current suffering in the Palestinian territories was in large self infliceted. Terrorism was the path chosen to express the Palestinian wish for a homeland; no matter how noble you say the cause is, it does not excuse the means. Would there not be any terrorism, the territories would not be in the shape they are in today, had there been a PEACEFUL antifada, international pressure would have eventually forced both sides to come to a middle ground. It is a shame that the arab world almost always resorts to "holy wars" and "antifadas"; to me this is savage and brutal. Israel was forced to defend its citizens and is still forced to do so today.
I think that things are starting to look better now. The reason for this is because slowly, the Palestinain people are begining to realize that an brutal "armed" campaing has been detrimental to their cause. Proof to this was the overwhelming elections results in favor of Abbas, who during his campaing preached the need to end the violence and that the "armed Antifada" was the wrong path. I have read that recent polls in the territories show dramatic change in public opinions whereas 2 years ago 70% of the population supported homocide bombings, now only about 35% still deem it necessary and trends indicate that this number is due to decline.
Lets hope this is a sign that the Palestinians are finally on the right path...(note that I have not mentioned any of the amred factions such as fatah or hamas...they will never want peace). |
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| Palestinian |
| quote: | Originally posted by Chris T. Dot
Well, I started reading the IDF thread, done about 10 pages. But since I don't know too much about the whole history of the conflict except for what I've seen in the news for the past few years, I have a few questions.
1) There seems to be a lot of hatred thrown by both sides. Now what I want made clear is....Do the Pro-Palestinian supporters hate the whole fact that Israel exists? Or just the fact that the IDF kills? Are you guys anti-semetic? Because from what you guys say sometimes it really starts to look like it.
2) Cyrus King, could you please give me a background of yourself? Nationality, upbringing, which country you were raised? What made you such a politically charged person? |
To address your first question, you should understand that Israel was created over Palestinian land, over 400 Palestinian villages were destroyed to create Israel in 1948. We're not much different than the Native Americans. 700,000 Palestinians were made refugees in the process. Now the fundamental problem isn't with Israel's existence, but with the Right of Return of the refugees. After every war, those who fled should be allowed to return to their homes. The Right of Return is enshrined in International Law and UN Resolution 194 was passed after Israel was created calling on the return of refugees. The problem is that if all the refugees returned to Israel, they would outnumber the Jews in the country and Israel would cease to be a Jewish state. This is why Israel hasn't allowed the refugees to return for around fifty years now. UN registered refugees are now 4 million (this includes the descendants of the 700,000 and the 400,000 expelled in 1967). They continue to demand their right to return to this day, out of their refugee camps in the surrounding Arab countries and elsewhere in the world. It is their dream to return to "the lost paradise of Palestine". After 2000 years in exile, Jews claimed the right of return to their ancient homeland, but after 50 years of Palestinian exile, those same Jews in Israel aren't allowing the Palestinians to return.
Now taking into account that Israel will never accept a solution that will threaten its Jewish character and population, we have largely accepted a two-state solution, Israel and Palestine. Israel wants the refugees to either forget about returning or to return to the newly created Palestinian state. Palestinians hope to get a symbolic acceptance of the Right of Return along with some refugees back to Israel and some to the Palestinian state, and the rest compensated. Idealy, it would be up to each refugee to decide what they want, as this is compliant with International Law. The issue of refugees, however, has not been discussed in peace talks between Israelis and Palestinians, and is left to the very end of the talks because it's the most difficult issue. Palestinians, however, will never abandon the Right of Return. It is an inalienable right enshrined in International Law and throwing it away does injustice.
Now the refugee issue is one issue. The other is that the land Palestinians want for a state has been Militarily Occupied by Israel for 38 years now, since 1967. The 3.5 million Palestinians living in the Occupied Territories (which includes Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem) suffer under Israeli military rule. Imagine a foreign army general having control over your life.
Occupation means:
Everyday you must pass a military checkpoint where you are checked by soldiers and must show an occupation ID card in order to pass through and reach school, university, work, or a hospital. There are hundreds of checkpoints in the territories and the lineups are long. Many cases involve women having to give birth at checkpoints because the military won't let them get to an ambulance. There are cases as well of people being beaten up because they dared to argue with a soldier, women ordered to lift their skirts, men to act like dogs, and men to strip naked if they wanted to pass through. The economy and freedom of movement is devastated as well because of this.
Settlements. Israel has built large colonies, or settlements, in the Occupied Territories. These settlements are composed of hundreds of first class homes for Jews only. Imagine one day the army knocks on your door and says your house has now been confiscated by the military and will be demolished in order to make way for a new settlement and you can go yourself. Jewish families then move into the settlements from Israel. Most of the settlers are religious Jews who believe your land belongs to them because God said so in the Old Testament of the Bible. The settlements also take up 80% of the water resources. They have sprinklers and swimming pools while your family has to pay exorbitant prices for a bit of water. Settlements are built in order to obtain a hold over the land so that when Palestinians negotiate for a state, Israel can say: well, every piece of land that has a settlement on it will be annexed to Israel. The aim is to create facts on the ground that Palestinians can't change. There are 400,000 settlers now in the West Bank. Who's going to provide their security? The military of course, so Israel's military surrounds the settlements and that's why there are checkpoints and road closures. The settlements are also linked to Israel by Jewish-only roads where Palestinians can't drive. These roads and highways cut the West Bank into different pieces where you have to go through the military to get to another piece of the West Bank. To sum this up, Israel has colonized Palestinian land and made reaching a peace agreement extremely difficult.
Now when Palestinians revolt against military rule, which is called the Intifada: sudden revolt to shake off an oppressor, the policies of occupation become much harsher. The first Intifada in 1987 did not include suicide bombers. It was largely made up of peaceful demonstrations, civil disobedience, and people picking up stones to throw at the military (because Palestinians had no weapons of their own). Palestinians were shot, roads were closed off, curfews were imposed (I was there at the time and in Gaza City there was a curfew every night starting at 9pm, if you went outside, you would be shot and killed), and more checkpoints are installed (my friend takes 4 hours every day to get to school because of checkpoints in Ramallah. I don't even know why he still goes! I swear I wouldn't even go if it took me four hours every in morning). Many Palestinians were also deported because they were affiliated with political factions or involved in civil disobedience (this largely included politically aware university students). Raising a Palestinian flag during the first Intifada was punishable as well. Settlers themselves come out of their settlements and harrass or shoot Palestinians on the street in some cases. Suicide bombing didn't start until after the first Intifada, and has accelerated during the second Intifada which started in 2000. Although I do not agree or condone suicide bombings against Israeli civilians, I can understand that this comes from the frustration with the Occupation. The Islamic movements that emerged are a result of this frustration as well. A Palestinian once said that "we have no one but God to stand with us. We would be nothing without God." This is totally understandable in their miserable situation. Obviously religious extremism would grow and thrive in such conditions. The majority of Palestinians though, are secular and would rather live under a secular state and not having to resort to religious extremism. Palestinians are also not all Muslim, but Christian too. Many Christian figures are in the resistance, including the Orthodox Christian Church of Jerusalem. So to say that Islam is the problem is pretty ignorant, and many Israelis do say this.
The borders of the territories are closed as well. Israel controls the borders, airspace, and seaports. People cannot travel from Gaza to the West Bank. Relatives cannot see each other because of this. I haven't been able to go back to Gaza to see my grandparents and relatives for four years now.
I think I've written too much for now. Here are a few excellent websites that I recommend:
www.palestineremembered.com
www.palestinemonitor.org
www.palestinechronicle.com
www.electronicintifada.net
www.gush-shalom.org
www.btselem.org |
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| Flotser |
| quote: | Originally posted by hardcore trancer
:rolleyes:
As if Isreal can survive without America. |
before 1967 america wasn't helping Israel. |
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| George Smiley |
| quote: | Originally posted by Flotser
before 1967 america wasn't helping Israel. |
A little bit, not much tho (in fact it took the Arabs side during the 1956 Suez crisis) |
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| shaolin_Z |
| Ok, I'm really curious now as to why many Israeli's have the viewpoint they do on this whole issue. Could one of you guys eigther post a brief version of the Israeli version of the history of the conflict or direct me to a website(one good link will be enough if thats possible). Alot of disagreement here seems to arise from eighter contradictory facts (by that I mean, the facts for both sides of the argument contradict each other). It's kind of hard to argue when ppl don't agree on the facts. |
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| TranceGiant |
Once again after the horrible attack on teenagers at the Dolphinarium 2001, a uicide bomber has injured and killed dozens of young Israelis waiting in the line before a nightclub.
Let's see what Abbas has to say about that. |
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| ierxium |
uicide?
Source please.
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| TranceGiant |
| quote: | Originally posted by ierxium
uicide?
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funny.
not.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast...sion/index.html
| quote: | JERUSALEM (CNN) -- An explosion in Tel Aviv Friday night was caused by a suicide bomber, Israeli media and police said.
As many as 24 people were wounded in the blast near The Stage nightclub, Israeli police said.
It was the first attack since Palestinian militants fired mortars at Israeli communities in Gaza two weeks ago.
Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas fired three key security officers after the mortar attack.
Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon announced a cease-fire agreement at a summit February 8 in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt -- the first high-level meeting between Israeli and Palestinian leaders in more than four years.
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| ierxium |
That's one of the rules of debating issues. Thou shalt not agree on the facts.
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