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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 41)
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| FederalBI |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
Instigated soley by the Arab?
The 1967 War and the
Israeli Occupation of the
West Bank and Gaza
Did the Egyptians actually start the 1967 war, as Israel originally claimed?
"The former Commander of the Air Force, General Ezer Weitzman, regarded as a hawk, stated that there was 'no threat of destruction' but that the attack on Egypt, Jordan and Syria was nevertheless justified so that Israel could 'exist according the scale, spirit, and quality she now embodies.'...Menahem Begin had the following remarks to make: 'In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.' "Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Was the 1967 war defenisve? - continued
"I do not think Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent to The Sinai would not have been sufficient to launch an offensive war. He knew it and we knew it." Yitzhak Rabin, Israel's Chief of Staff in 1967, in Le Monde, 2/28/68
Moshe Dayan posthumously speaks out on the Golan Heights
"Moshe Dayan, the celebrated commander who, as Defense Minister in 1967, gave the order to conquer the Golan...[said] many of the firefights with the Syrians were deliberately provoked by Israel, and the kibbutz residents who pressed the Government to take the Golan Heights did so less for security than for the farmland...[Dayan stated] 'They didn't even try to hide their greed for the land...We would send a tractor to plow some area where it wasn't possible to do anything, in the demilitarized area, and knew in advance that the Syrians would start to shoot. If they didn't shoot, we would tell the tractor to advance further, until in the end the Syrians would get annoyed and shoot.
And then we would use artillery and later the air force also, and that's how it was...The Syrians, on the fourth day of the war, were not a threat to us.'" The New York Times, May 11, 1997
The history of Israeli expansionism
"The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today. But the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them." David Ben-Gurion, in 1936, quoted in Noam Chomsky, "The Fateful Triangle."
Expansionism - continued
"The main danger which Israel, as a 'Jewish state', poses to its own people, to other Jews and to its neighbors, is its ideologically motivated pursuit of territorial expansion and the inevitable series of wars resulting from this aim...No zionist politician has ever repudiated Ben-Gurion's idea that Israeli policies must be based (within the limits of practical considerations) on the restoration of Biblical borders as the borders of the Jewish state." Israeli professor, Israel Shahak, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3000 Years."
Expansionism - continued
In Israeli Prime Minister Moshe Sharatt's personal diaries, there is an excerpt from May of 1955 in which he quotes Moshe Dayan as follows: "[Israel] must see the sword as the main, if not the only, instrument with which to keep its morale high and to retain its moral tension. Toward this end it may, no - it must - invent dangers, and to do this it must adopt the method of provocation-and-revenge...And above all - let us hope for a new war with the Arab countries, so that we may finally get rid of our troubles and acquire our space." Quoted in Livia Rokach, "Israel's Sacred Terrorism."
But wasn't the occupation of Arab lands necessary to protect Israel's security?
"Senator [J.William Fulbright] proposed in 1970 that America should guarantee Israel's security in a formal treaty, protecting her with armed forces if necessary. In return, Israel would retire to the borders of 1967. The UN Security Council would guarantee this arrangement, and thereby bring the Soviet Union - then a supplier of arms and political aid to the Arabs - into compliance. As Israeli troops were withdrawn from the Golan Heights, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they would be replaced by a UN peacekeeping force. Israel would agree to accept a certain number of Palestinians and the rest would be settled in a Palestinian state outside Israel.
"The plan drew favorable editorial support in the United States. The proposal, however, was flatly rejected by Israel. 'The whole affair disgusted Fulbright,' writes [his biographer Randall] Woods. 'The Israelis were not even willing to act in their own self-interest.'" Allan Brownfield in "Issues of the American Council for Judaism." Fall 1997.[Ed.-This was one of many such proposals]
What happened after the 1967 war ended?
"In violation of international law, Israel has confiscated over 52 percent of the land in the West Bank and 30 percent of the Gaza Strip for military use or for settlement by Jewish civilians...From 1967 to 1982, Israel's military government demolished 1,338 Palestinian homes on the West Bank. Over this period, more than 300,000 Palestinians were detained without trial for various periods by Israeli security forces." Intifada: The Palestinian Uprising Against Israeli Occupation," ed. Lockman and Beinin.
World opinion on the legality of Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza.
"Under the UN Charter there can lawfully be no territorial gains from war, even by a state acting in self-defense. The response of other states to Israel's occupation shows a virtually unanimous opinion that even if Israel's action was defensive, its retention of the West Bank and Gaza Strip was not...The [UN] General Assembly characterized Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as a denial of self determination and hence a 'serious and increasing threat to international peace and security.' " John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Examples of the effects of Israeli occupation
"A study of students at Bethlehem University reported by the Coordinating Committee of International NGOs in Jerusalem showed that many families frequently go five days a week without running water...The study goes further to report that, 'water quotas restrict usage by Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, while Israeli settlers have almost unlimited amounts.'
"A summer trip to a Jewish settlement on the edge of the Judean desert less than five miles from Bethlehem confirmed this water inequity for us. While Bethlehemites were buying water from tank trucks at highly inflated rates, the lawns were green in the settlement. Sprinklers were going at mid day in the hot August sunshine. Sounds of children swimming in the outdoor pool added to the unreality." Betty Jane Bailey, in "The Link", December 1996.
Israeli occupation - continued
"You have to remember that 90 percent of children two years old or more have experienced - some many, many times - the [Israeli] army breaking into the home, beating relatives, destroying things. Many were beaten themselves, had bones broken, were shot, tear gassed, or had these things happen to siblings and neighbors...The emotional aspect of the child is affected by the [lack of] security. He needs to feel safe. We see the consequences later if he does not. In our research, we have found that children who are exposed to trauma tend to be more extreme in their behaviors and, later, in their political beliefs." Dr Samir Quota, director of research for the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme, quoted in "The Journal of Palestine Studies," Summer 1996, p.84
Israeli occupation - continued
"There is nothing quite like the misery one feels listening to a 35-year-old [Palestinian] man who worked fifteen years as an illegal day laborer in Israel in order to save up money to build a house for his family only to be shocked one day upon returning from work to find that the house and all that was in it had been flattened by an Israeli bulldozer. When I asked why this was done - the land, after all, was his - I was told that a paper given to him the next day by an Israeli soldier stated that he had built the structure without a license. Where else in the world are people required to have a license (always denied them) to build on their own property? Jews can build, but never Palestinians. This is apartheid." Edward Said, in "The Nation", May 4, 1998.
All Jewish settlements in territories occupied in the 1967 war are a direct violation of the Geneva Conventions, which Israel has signed.
"The Geneva Convention requires an occupying power to change the existing order as little as possible during its tenure. One aspect of this obligation is that it must leave the territory to the people it finds there. It may not bring its own people to populate the territory. This prohibition is found in the convention's Article 49, which states, 'The occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.'" John Quigley, "Palestine and Israel: A Challenge to Justice."
Excerpts from the U.S. State Department's reports during the Intifada
"Following are some excerpts from the U.S. State Department's Country Reports on Human Rights Practices from 1988 to 1991:
1988: 'Many avoidable deaths and injuries' were caused because Israeli soldiers frequently used gunfire in situations that did not present mortal danger to troops...IDF troops used clubs to break limbs and beat Palestinians who were not directly involved in disturbances or resisting arrest..At least thirteen Palestinians have been reported to have died from beatings...'
1989: Human rights groups charged that the plainclothes security personnel acted as death squads who killed Palestinian activists without warning, after they had surrendered, or after they had been subdued...
1991: [The report] added that the human rights groups had published 'detailed credible reports of torture, abuse and mistreatment of Palestinian detainees in prisons and detention centers." Former Congressman Paul Findley, "Deliberate Deceptions."
Jerusalem - Eternal, Indivisible Capital of Israel?
"Writing in The Jerusalem Report (Feb. 28, 2000), Leslie Susser points out that the current boundaries were drawn after the Six-Day War. Responsibility for drawing those lines fell to Central Command Chief Rehavan Ze'evi. The line he drew 'took in not only the five square kilometers of Arab East Jerusalem - but also 65 square kilometers of surrounding open country and villages, most of which never had any municipal link to Jerusalem. Overnight they became part of Israel's eternal and indivisible capital.'" Allan Brownfield in The Washington Report On Middle East Affairs, May 2000. |
Geeeee....
then i guess israel is evil :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: |
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
You don't get it do you. The attacks will continue as long as Israel continues to illegaly occupy territories. |
You are really confusing with your responses. Why do you respond in like 10 different posts instead of 1.
I do get it. Israel said they are leaving Gaza!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop freaking attacking them and give thema chance to leave for christs sake. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael19
I would consider some of those countries to be civilised. |
Your argument is that Israel is getting away with more than the average 'civilized country' because they have a Jewish character and you think people actually still care about the holocaust.
Yet China is occupying and oppressing the buddist people of Tibet.
Jordan has slaughtered thousands of Palestinians with no political uproaor.
Syria is occupying and oppressing the people of Lebanon.
Turkey is oppressing and killing the Kurds.
Pakistan supported the Taliban, a foreign government to Afghanistan which severly oppressed, tortured, and killed its citizens, to little Western concern. Turkey also occupies and oppresses the people of Cyprus.
India oppresses the Muslim minority and have occasional non-state-sponsored slaughter of muslims.
Indonesia oppressed and occupied East Timor, killing thousands.
The Philipines oppress and kill hundreds in areas of the Jemmah Islamiya.
Russia occupies and oppresses the nation of Checneya, killing thousands of civilians in the process.
Spain has historically oppressed the Basque and occupy's their nation.
Greece is oppressing the people of Cyprus and other Turkish islands.
The USA, UK, Australia, occupy and oppress the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Honestly, with 'as bad if not worse' treatment to their chosen foe than Israel, I can't see why these nations aren't being critized more about their humanitarian abuses. If only all those nations had holocausts, then people would be more leiniant to them and they'd finally get out of that intense international spotlight!:rolleyes:
| quote: |
Its a matter of opinion on them being "barbarians", alot of people would consider the israelis to be the barbarians. |
I'm using it in the traditional sense of the word. As in Civilized vs. Savages. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
Stop freaking attacking them and give thema chance to leave for christs sake. |
:conf: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Tomer
So I list facts... |
:rolleyes: :haha: :stongue: |
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| shaolin_Z |
| you should first find out what they really are instead of putting all of the blame on one side. |
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| Michael19 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Your argument is that Israel is getting away with more than the average 'civilized country' because they have a Jewish character and you think people actually still care about the holocaust.
Yet China is occupying and oppressing the buddist people of Tibet.
Jordan has slaughtered thousands of Palestinians with no political uproaor.
Syria is occupying and oppressing the people of Lebanon.
Turkey is oppressing and killing the Kurds.
Pakistan supported the Taliban, a foreign government to Afghanistan which severly oppressed, tortured, and killed its citizens, to little Western concern. Turkey also occupies and oppresses the people of Cyprus.
India oppresses the Muslim minority and have occasional non-state-sponsored slaughter of muslims.
Indonesia oppressed and occupied East Timor, killing thousands.
The Philipines oppress and kill hundreds in areas of the Jemmah Islamiya.
Russia occupies and oppresses the nation of Checneya, killing thousands of civilians in the process.
Spain has historically oppressed the Basque and occupy's their nation.
Greece is oppressing the people of Cyprus and other Turkish islands.
The USA, UK, Australia, occupy and oppress the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Honestly, with 'as bad if not worse' treatment to their chosen foe than Israel, I can't see why these nations aren't being critized more about their humanitarian abuses. If only all those nations had holocausts, then people would be more leiniant to them and they'd finally get out of that intense international spotlight!:rolleyes:
I'm using it in the traditional sense of the word. As in Civilized vs. Savages. |
while Spain, USA, GB, Austrailia and greece are opressing people, they dont do it in quite the same barbaric style as the israeli's do.
The war in iraqi is wrong, and stupid. But i do not belive those forces are as opressing to the iraqi people as the israeli's are to the palestinians. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by BadBadNeil
You are really confusing with your responses. Why do you respond in like 10 different posts instead of 1.
I do get it. Israel said they are leaving Gaza!!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop freaking attacking them and give thema chance to leave for christs sake. |
LEAVE????? THEYVE BEEN THERE FOR 56 YEARS!!!!
how many more chances can the palestinians gfive when their land is stolen everyday and new settlements are being built in the west bank.
Finally after half a century these zionists understand what theft and greed is and they are leaving arab land. |
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| Cyrus King |
| quote: | Originally posted by Dj Tomer
So how is this the Israeli's fault?
Fact of the matter is, it was a poor decision to put them there, but soon as they got there they were attacked. The Arabs have been the instigators in pretty much every major war. You can't deny those facts. |
It is natural for a population to FIGHT FOR WHAT IS RIGHTFULLY thiers in the first place from thieves migrating from eastern europe to take their homeland and make it a place solely for themselves by force, murder, displacement, rape, theft, and pilaging.
I would fight for Canada if a group of Americans came here and tried to take it over. |
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| shaolin_Z |
Amen to that Cyrus. If you pro-Zionist can't even comprehend something as simple as that (i.e fighting foreighn invasion), you're completely biased and irrational and your opinion has no validity. They're going to fight back, by whatever means they have. That's not a justification for terrorism, but Israel uses terrorism as a means all the time so your argument about terrorism has no grounds.
Zionist have no intention of leaving the Palestinians alone and provoke terrorism and use it as a means to justify illegally expanding Israel's boundries.
Learn to cooperate and live in peace goadamit. Even if you manage to wipe out palestinians, the rest of the Arab world is never going to forgive you. You need to understand that it's in the interest of Israel to stop it's attrocities. The palestinians and the Israelis need to cooperate to bring and end to terrorism and shut down terrorsist cells. |
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| BadBadNeil |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
The palestinians and the Israelis need to cooperate to bring and end to terrorism and shut down terrorsist cells. |
This I agree with.
I will leave this thread alone from now on as the few who debate here have our views, neither is right or wrong, we've all made our points, and the discussion has gone in 10 circles since as we debate the same points over and over.
Good Luck Palestinians and Israelis. |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Michael19
while Spain, USA, GB, Austrailia and greece are opressing people, they dont do it in quite the same barbaric style as the israeli's do. |
What about the other countries I listed?
Is would you prefer the Israelis treat the Palestinians like the Russians treat the Chechens?
| quote: |
The war in iraqi is wrong, and stupid. But i do not belive those forces are as opressing to the iraqi people as the israeli's are to the palestinians. |
This is your opinion --- put some merit to it by making an argument. |
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