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The ultimate Israel - Palestine Thread (it's all here) (pg. 42)
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| Lira |
The size of this thread makes me wonder...
If a random country (such as Russia, China, Canada or Brazil) offered some land both to Israelis and Paletistinians (they would be far apart from one another), would any side accept it? |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
The size of this thread makes me wonder...
If a random country (such as Russia, China, Canada or Brazil) offered some land both to Israelis and Paletistinians (they would be far apart from one another), would any side accept it? |
highly unlikely. to the palestinians its their home and holy land. its holy for jews aswell. no ones going to just get up and leave. |
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| Sevas Stra |
| Palestians have been banned from half a dozen countries...there's a good reason for that. :rolleyes: |
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| wolverine16 |
| quote: | Originally posted by shaolin_Z
highly unlikely. to the palestinians its their home and holy land. its holy for jews aswell. no ones going to just get up and leave. |
This is true. Actually there was some talk during the earliest stages of the Zionist movement when some land in colonial Africa, among other places was offered as a homeland, but it was not seriously considered. The reason that this thread is so long is because this issue is much more complicated than other skirmishes in the world, because it is not simply an argument that one side is the oppressor; Both sides have some legitimate reasons. Not in every case, but many issues, such as with genocidal acts, the argument is about what should be done to stop it, rather than who is to blame. Another reason this subject gets so much attention is it's one of the few major incidents that involves an eastern culture versus a western culture.
| quote: | Yet China is occupying and oppressing the buddist people of Tibet.
Jordan has slaughtered thousands of Palestinians with no political uproaor.
Syria is occupying and oppressing the people of Lebanon.
Turkey is oppressing and killing the Kurds.
Pakistan supported the Taliban, a foreign government to Afghanistan which severly oppressed, tortured, and killed its citizens, to little Western concern. Turkey also occupies and oppresses the people of Cyprus.
India oppresses the Muslim minority and have occasional non-state-sponsored slaughter of muslims.
Indonesia oppressed and occupied East Timor, killing thousands.
The Philipines oppress and kill hundreds in areas of the Jemmah Islamiya.
Russia occupies and oppresses the nation of Checneya, killing thousands of civilians in the process.
Spain has historically oppressed the Basque and occupy's their nation.
Greece is oppressing the people of Cyprus and other Turkish islands.
The USA, UK, Australia, occupy and oppress the peoples of Iraq and Afghanistan.
Honestly, with 'as bad if not worse' treatment to their chosen foe than Israel, I can't see why these nations aren't being critized more about their humanitarian abuses. If only all those nations had holocausts, then people would be more leiniant to them and they'd finally get out of that intense international spotlight |
You are right in your list that many other countries are committing horrible acts and they deserve more attention. They are as inexcusable as anything involved in Israel/Palestine. News coverage, at least here, has become despicable, as Tibet is lucky if it's ever mentioned if there's not a freedom concert going on in Central Park. Few people in the U.S. are aware that any of these events exist, so there is no way they could be outraged by them.
In the case of Israel/Palestine, the U.S. does play a significant role in the conflict and therefore it does have more importance than many other serious conflicts in the world. Year after year, we give far more money in foreign aid to Israel than any other country (with the exception now of Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction). Much of this money goes for defense, which means we have a direct impact on the violence that occurs. Groups like Hamas who kill civilians should not be treated with respect, but neither should settlers who attempt to divide Palestinian lands or those who force many Palestinians to live in camps with little to live on. The ultimate problem les in that the extremists on both sides have been calling the shots lately. Even Sharon has called for the end to many settlements, while settlers have refused to leave. Likewise Abbas or whomever becomes the new PLO leader faces the wrath of terror groups if they offer any contritions to Israel.
End of late night rant. |
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| hardcore trancer |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sevas Stra
Palestians have been banned from half a dozen countries...there's a good reason for that. :rolleyes: |
:rolleyes: As if Americans are loved around the world. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sevas Stra
Palestians have been banned from half a dozen countries...there's a good reason for that. :rolleyes: |
you've been bashed more than a half a dozen times on the political forums...there's a good reason for that:rolleyes: |
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| Dunya |
| quote: | Originally posted by Sevas Stra
Palestians have been banned from half a dozen countries...there's a good reason for that. :rolleyes: |
oh not again she is tryng to get attention.:rolleyes: poorpoor baby, |
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| Yoepus |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
The size of this thread makes me wonder...
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Reverting back to yellow font I see... ;) (u know this really makes quoting u annoying :eek: :toothless )
Anyways - perhaps if you would have closed this thread pages ago you wouldn't be 'wondering' so much :p
| quote: |
If a random country (such as Russia, China, Canada or Brazil) offered some land both to Israelis and Paletistinians (they would be far apart from one another), would any side accept it? |
Today no - but in the past - yes.
The Jews would only have accepted a 'random' country prior to Israel. When offered the choice between a random country and Israel, they chose Israel.
The reason why the Jews won't accept a different country is because of the very nature of origin for Israel, not its character. They build Israel so they could finally escape persecution in the world and live in their own society, by their own creation, and ensure their own survial.
If the Jews were to move it proves they are indeed not in control of their destiny... they are still persecuted. If they have to move from Israel because Arabs are persecuting them there, what gaurantee will there be that they won't be persecuted wherever they go?
As for the Palestinians, had they been offered refugee status in other Arab countries when they actually became refugees then I believe they would have been absorbed into the pan-Arab culture - they wouldn't even have need an offer for another country. Most likely they would never accept a country in a some random area like Brazil or Russia that does is not part of the Arab cutlure - I beleive this is because the Palestinians don't really have a unqiue culture but share the pan-Arab culture. Today even an offer for land in a fellow Arab nation won't be accepted because it will solidify the symbol of their defeated struggle of the past 50 years. And the Palestinians will continually refuse to conceed they have been defeated. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
Reverting back to yellow font I see... ;) (u know this really makes quoting u annoying :eek: :toothless )
Anyways - perhaps if you would have closed this thread pages ago you wouldn't be 'wondering' so much :p
Today no - but in the past - yes.
The Jews would only have accepted a 'random' country prior to Israel. When offered the choice between a random country and Israel, they chose Israel.
The reason why the Jews won't accept a different country is because of the very nature of origin for Israel, not its character. They build Israel so they could finally escape persecution in the world and live in their own society, by their own creation, and ensure their own survial.
If the Jews were to move it proves they are indeed not in control of their destiny... they are still persecuted. If they have to move from Israel because Arabs are persecuting them there, what gaurantee will there be that they won't be persecuted wherever they go?
As for the Palestinians, had they been offered refugee status in other Arab countries when they actually became refugees then I believe they would have been absorbed into the pan-Arab culture - they wouldn't even have need an offer for another country. Most likely they would never accept a country in a some random area like Brazil or Russia that does is not part of the Arab cutlure - I beleive this is because the Palestinians don't really have a unqiue culture but share the pan-Arab culture. Today even an offer for land in a fellow Arab nation won't be accepted because it will solidify the symbol of their defeated struggle of the past 50 years. And the Palestinians will continually refuse to conceed they have been defeated. |
You make some pretty good points there.
| quote: | Originally posted by Yoepus
They build Israel so they could finally escape persecution in the world and live in their own society, by their own creation, and ensure their own survial. |
But that doesnt give you the right to persecute the indigenous people of that area eigther. |
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| shaolin_Z |
| or force them out of their homes and lands |
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| wolverine16 |
Unquestionably Jewish people in France and Russia at he time of the Dreyfus Affair and pogroms respectively clearly had reason to doubt they were accepted as full citizens. The problem though is that Zionism does not completely hold up, in that there are many Jewish-Americans who are able to live here with full consideration as having American nationality and also maintaining their Jewish faith. There are many American Jewish citiziens who recognize the struggles that their faith has endured, but they reject the Zionist belief that they cannot live amongst other peoples.
When the Balfour Declaration was made by Britain, the wording called for the creation of A Jewish state, not THE Jewish state of Israel. The word was not picked arbitrarily, as the point was to establish a Jewish state, while not denying Jewish citizens of England had the right to maintain their British nationality if they chose to stay there, which many did. This in itself shows the Zionist need for a totally separate state was not fully supported due to acceptance in other places. When the Balfour Declaration was made, 90% of the land in what is now Israel was owned by Muslims, who had just recently ended a period of rule by the Ottoman Empire. There was no solidified national character for these people, because they had just ended a long period of occupation. This does not change the fact that they still had a firm connection to their locale for many generations, not to mention that the land contains a number of extremely important religious sites. With the founding of Israel and resulting wars, a large number of Palestinians did move to other Arab countries, such as Jordan, but this led to widespread tension and near civil war in some cases. The reality is they cannot simply be absorbed into othr Arab countries, as they are not wanted there to a large extent, nor do they desire that as their homeland.
This is all important, particularly because of the difference in birth rate between Jewish Israelis, who are currently the majority, with a minority Muslim population within Israel. These Muslim inhabitants of Israel are citizens and some even serve in government and have seats in the Kinneset. As the current birth rate holds steady, there will be further problems complicating the country, as Muslims will eventually become the majority, therefore not making Israel a majority Jewish nation. Are these people also to be ousted at some point somewhere as well?
(Sorry, didn't realize I wrote as much as I did) |
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| shaolin_Z |
Please Help Israel Stop Its Self-Destructive Occupation of Gaza and the West Bank
Immediately following revelations of American soldiers torturing prisoners in Iraq, the world's attention turned to Israel which, after the defeat of Ariel Sharon's ill-conceived Gaza withdrawal plan by his very own Likud party, launched a new offensive against Palestinian civilians in the Rafah refugee camp (on the southernmost tip of the Gaza strip near Egypt). Under the guise of searching for tunnels and clearing space for its future military presence on the Egyptian border, Israel conducted a violent operation against Palestinian civilians accused of no crime other than living there. In front of the world's television cameras, Israel gave these Gazans a few hours to pack their bags before their homes were demolished by Israeli tanks and bulldozers.
http://www.tikkun.org/magazine/inde...le/040703b.html |
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