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FIFA World Cup 2010 in South Africa Discussion (pg. 236)
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| Meat187 |
| quote: | Originally posted by Lira
Could you guys tell the Germans from outside Bavaria to come here?
I mean, I like you Bavarians and all but I'm puzzled as to why you're the only people in Deutschland to venture into the depths of the Chill Out Room :conf: |
Reason #3541 why Bavaria >>>>>>> rest of Germany.
What do you expect Lira, people from the East? Ossis??? They don't have internet over there, most of them are still waiting for the Trabi they ordered in 1988. People from the West? They're not let out of the coal mines, except for Christmas, most of them are Turkish or Polish, and those who aren't speak German and have a level of education as if they were. Or those from the North? Nobody lives there anyway, and all they do is fishing, selling fish, eating fish, smelling like fish and cutting peat. For them the Pirate Bay is somewhere near Ostfriesland and a computer mouse irritates them because it has no scales. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by Meat187
Reason #3541 why Bavaria >>>>>>> rest of Germany.
What do you expect Lira, people from the East? Ossis??? They don't have internet over there, most of them are still waiting for the Trabi they ordered in 1988. People from the West? They're not let out of the coal mines, except for Christmas, most of them are Turkish or Polish, and those who aren't speak German and have a level of education as if they were. Or those from the North? Nobody lives there anyway, and all they do is fishing, selling fish, eating fish, smelling like fish and cutting peat. For them the Pirate Bay is somewhere near Ostfriesland and a computer mouse irritates them because it has no scales. |
:stongue:
Well, aren't there more Southerners? What happened to all those people in Baden-Württemberg? If there's internet in Bavaria and in France, there must be something remotely similar to the intarwebs in Stuttgart, no? |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I don't really see the connection to what we're talking about. |
You can only do that if you're not prevaricating and therefor take into account the totality of European Football and accept the fact that the totality of it does relate to what you're speaking to. Trying to divorce the low-class tendencies of European football fans is like serving Wellington without the beef.
Exhibit A:
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Although your laughable elitism says everything about how Americans treat sport. To you, it's merely entertainment and should be a slickly crafted product designed to generate the maximum amount of artificial excitement for the audience. The idea that football is the game of the people and that most of these South Africans are relatively very poor seems to have flown over your stupid balding ing head. |
Here is a generalization you've made about how American's regard our sporting events which depicts us as superficial, shallow morons who would be less likely to watch (our) football without the attendant multi-axial, three-dimensional graphic animations to frame the accumulated statistics of today's game before going into a commercial break. To my mind, this is indicative of a conceit regarding European football.
It would seem European football is esteemed as less a force of mass-marketing and more a fundamental part of your cultural make-up than say our sport franchises are to Americans who are so out of touch with our actual identities that we have lost the force of will necessary to refrain from following the movement of bright, shiny objects which clatter and clink as they are dragged across the carpet, while our owners loft them around our home through the use of an attached string fastened to their finger.
To wit, I acknowledge some of the truth to this characterization in that we have become accustomed to the pomp and showmanship; slick production values brought to us by highly trained teams of cameramen and sport television producers who organize the miasma of information surrounding or parcel to any professional sporting event into a contiguous yet robust spectacle, replete with up to the minute player statistics and highly finessed tracking shots from robotic cameras suspended over the field of play. They actually have three different tiers of production teams who go from venue to venue, the top tier being reserved for the most watched teams - and they are really good at what they do.
So long as we're speaking of comparisons between fans, lets include all of the fans. Let's talk about post game violence in the United States which is short-lived and usually involves only a few hundred easily dispersed people (closest I've ever come to this is when I was a valet for a Basketball game in Denver, CO and this comes up and pushes me wondering why their car has been towed), here in America; the cars set on fire and bottles broken on a few noggin's but all wrapped in group psychology, the warmth of booze in the veins, and the heat of the moment. It's something most regret after a night in jail and does not occur as often as, say, post game violence in Europe. It is certainly not as intense. Although if you talk to a policeman, here, he'll tell you there is a surge in domestic violence calls when the home team loses - don't know if it's the same in your country.
No. Violence in Europe following a game at its pinnacle includes a group-excitement homicide or two. A visiting fan might find himself surrounded by a group of misanthropic, disillusioned blue-collar grunts who've thought ahead of time to bring a knife or two. Intestines might wind up harvested by the broken bottle onto the pavement of unwatched (Not in London, however due to a preponderance of video cameras) pedestrian thoroughfares.
Nevermind the fact that the Italians jeered an African player on a visiting team, recently. The Ireland-France game last year was practically an international incident and quite literally head-line news here in America - and all because of an insistence not to resort to technology which would have proven the bad call. Not even counting the World Cup, there are so many factors which make your statement a bold act of hypocrisy in assessing European football with any other quality than what can already be assessed to any sport. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
You can only do that if you're not prevaricating and therefor take into account the totality of European Football and accept the fact that the totality of it does relate to what you're speaking to. Trying to divorce the low-class tendencies of European football fans is like serving Wellington without the beef. |
I'm not talking about "European football" at all, because as I've stated vuvuzelas are exclusively a South African custom. Further to that, the tendency of crowds to dance around, (badly) play instruments and have a party regardless of the events on the pitch is, by and large, an African trait. You'll very rarely see it in most major European leagues, especially because standing up is banned for safety reasons at most top stadiums.
The point here is that South African football is not a product, because nobody outside of South Africa watches it. It isn't a syndicated, cleanly polished package of sporting entertainment for the viewing millions. For the most part it entertains the people who go to the stadiums and watch it, and it's been their custom for decades to have a party as they do. That's their attitude towards sport.
IGK is suggesting that the World Cup is badly organised because FIFA have failed to brutally suppress the actions of these local fans in order for the television audience to have a more pleasing product. I am refuting that as myopic elitist bull.
There hasn't been any violence in any of the stadiums at this World Cup, and almost none anywhere in the country relating to the football. Given that each seperate league in each of the 200+ countries that play football has different security rules and different systems in place with the local police force, any discussion of relative levels of fan violence between sports and their relationship to the organisation of the matches is utter pie-in-the-sky bull conjecture.
So, again: what has your point got to do with my post? |
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| pmoisse |
| quote: | Originally posted by Meat187
Reason #3541 why Bavaria >>>>>>> rest of Germany.
What do you expect Lira, people from the East? Ossis??? They don't have internet over there, most of them are still waiting for the Trabi they ordered in 1988. People from the West? They're not let out of the coal mines, except for Christmas, most of them are Turkish or Polish, and those who aren't speak German and have a level of education as if they were. Or those from the North? Nobody lives there anyway, and all they do is fishing, selling fish, eating fish, smelling like fish and cutting peat. For them the Pirate Bay is somewhere near Ostfriesland and a computer mouse irritates them because it has no scales. |
*LOVES THIS*
I <3 Bavaria |
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| EddieZilker |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So, again: what has your point got to do with my post? |
Restricting the use of vuvuzelas being characterized as brutal, I think is a bit of a stretch. When looked at in totality, there is nothing about European (a distinction I was making, not for the sake of localizing it to one region but because I found using Soccer or Futbol more or less unnecessarily diminutive and wanted to make a distinction between Soccer and American football) football which would elevate it beyond being impugned for its apparent short-comings. Furthermore, I wished to elaborate on the flaws you've claimed for American sports as to, in fact, elevate them.
I'm not putting American Football above Rest of the World Football but when you make an assertion that because Americans are used to a more refined product our remarks about a lack of refinement show a lack of refinement; that is simply laughable. IGK made relevant observations about the sport. It wasn't the result of an ethnocentric world view or spoiled notions spoon-fed by producers of a top-shelf product, but a frank analysis of a game found wanting for a variety of reasons, the least of which is the violent portions of the cultural tapestry which I take full responsibility for raising and acknowledge that, as of yet, the World Cup is currently free from.
The fact remains that if one takes your remarks at face value, there is an implied superiority to European football which, by virtue of the actual deficits I've raised, simply isn't there. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by EddieZilker
I'm not putting American Football above Rest of the World Football but when you make an assertion that because Americans are used to a more refined product our remarks about a lack of refinement show a lack of refinement; that is simply laughable. |
Oh contraire - elitism tends to be highly refined.
As has been repeatedly established, fan violence and vuvuzelas are utterly unrelated. You can try and bury that in high falutin' prose as much as you please, but I'll keep batting it back at you. FIFA and the South African security forces have been exceptional in their control of violence in this tournament. There is no argument there. Your posts are production gloss with no hook.
What I'm saying, and what you're failing to refute, is that IGK's complaints about vuvuzelas have nothing to do with bad organisation and everything to do with myopic cultural attitudes. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Oh contraire - elitism tends to be highly refined. |
Wee, monseigneur  |
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| Lews |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
What I'm saying, and what you're failing to refute, is that IGK's complaints about vuvuzelas have nothing to do with bad organisation and everything to do with myopic cultural attitudes. |
Which is what I was trying to say earlier.
I think. |
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| Meat187 |
| How can people even try to argue with an Englishman about hooligans?? They invented hooliganism and are the leading experts, ffs! |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| I did Franglicise "Au contraire" a little there. |
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| Lira |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
I did Franglicise "Au contraire" a little there. |
And I absolutely love it because of the topic of the debate. Namely, "elitism" :p
That's what you're talking about, right? |
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