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FIFA World Cup 2010 in South Africa Discussion (pg. 242)
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| woscar |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
Because saying "They got knocked out in the quarters, they must be the worst team since 1990" is incredibly simplistic. I suppose Uruguay are better than Brazil, or the Turkey or South Korea sides of 2002 are better than Brazil? |
And when did I use that argument? All I said was that they were the worst Brazilian squad since that 1990 WC fiasco and as a consequence they would be lucky if they made it past the Quarterfinals. And I said that before the WC even started. I wasn't comparing this team to any other team based on how far they got in this or on any previous World Cups, I was just making an assessment based on the players Dunga decided to include.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
This Brazil team is still obviously better than the 2006 team managed by Parreira, and I noticed you've conveniently overlooked that point to focus on the 1990 team. Don't scrabble too hard for a "I told you so moment", son. |
No, you're the one focusing on teams from previous years and their results in order to avoid accepting that you were wrong. Parreira's 2006 squad was 1000 times better than this squad. It had players with experience and who shined on some of the best teams in the world. Yes, Parreira couldn't manage them and they let their gigantic egos get in the way and failed miserably, but that's besides the point here. This time, Dunga decided to take a bunch of nobodies with Kaka and Robinho. Combine that with his way to see the game, and you have a massive failure that was predictable since he announced his squad. |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
And when did I use that argument? All I said was that they were the worst Brazilian squad since that 1990 WC fiasco and as a consequence they would be lucky if they made it past the Quarterfinals. |
So what argument are you making? I'm baffled. You seem to think you have proof, and it seems to involve the quarter-final defeat, but you're denying using that argument? Pray tell.
| quote: | | Parreira's 2006 squad was 1000 times better than this squad. It had players with experience and who shined on some of the best teams in the world. Yes, Parreira couldn't manage them and they let their gigantic egos get in the way and failed miserably, but that's besides the point here. |
No it isn't. Football is not played on paper. If a team plays badly on the pitch, it doesn't matter how good the individual players are. Surely this World Cup has taught you that. For a cule, this is remarkably like Galacticos-logic. |
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| malek |
ing disaster the magic octopus chose Spain over Germany
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| woscar |
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
So what argument are you making? I'm baffled. You seem to think you have proof, and it seems to involve the quarter-final defeat, but you're denying using that argument? Pray tell. |
The argument that I was making was that this Brazilian squad was not a good one based on the list that Dunga presented. You said it was bull and that Dunga made a great job by choosing them over "big names". I said they would be lucky if they got past the Quarterfinals, and you went on and on about how with each game that passed, that Brazil would be champion. I was able to predict a flop only based on their 23 man list, the eventual failure in Quarterfinals is only a confirmation. Comparing it to the 2006 and 1990 teams is grossly irrelevant and the only one interested in bringing it into the discussion is you. Yes, I brought up the 90' squad by stating that this was the worst team in 20 years but you are obsessed with proving that wrong instead of looking at what matters, which is that I predicted that this team was destined to fail and they eventually did. It's not even important for me to prove that I was right, but to prove that all the rage about how great Dunga's squad was ridiculous and unjustified.
Accept it already, you were wrong in your judgments and Dunga wasn't the genius you thought he was. His big plan to get back in the game against Netherlands was to throw balls into the box and take out his tallest, strongest forward and bring in Nilmar the midget, for 's sake.
| quote: | Originally posted by SYSTEM-J
No it isn't. Football is not played on paper. If a team plays badly on the pitch, it doesn't matter how good the individual players are. Surely this World Cup has taught you that. For a cule, this is remarkably like Galacticos-logic. |
The team had not been playing badly on the pitch before the World Cup. they were demolishing their opposition and everyone was 100% sure that Brazil was going to be crowned in Germany. The team chemistry before the WC was superb and the individual players were fantastic. It was that combination of team spirit and individual skill that leads me to say that the 2006 Brazil squad was better than this one, and in spades. Somehow, when they set foot in Germany they managed to fail because their big heads got in the way. |
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| wotyzoid |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
All I said was that they were the worst Brazilian squad since that 1990 WC fiasco and as a consequence they would be lucky if they made it past the Quarterfinals. |
You don't know what you're talking about. |
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| Nrg2Nfinit |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
bull that Dunga made |
sounds about right to me |
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| SYSTEM-J |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
The argument that I was making was that this Brazilian squad was not a good one based on the list that Dunga presented. You said it was bull and that Dunga made a great job by choosing them over "big names". I said they would be lucky if they got past the Quarterfinals, and you went on and on about how with each game that passed, that Brazil would be champion. |
I never said Dunga did a "great job" of anything. I'd love a citation of anything where I've actually praised Dunga. I "went on and on" exactly once, after they thrashed Chile.
I'm happy to admit I'm wrong in thinking Brazil would win it: I made my predictions months ago on page six of this thread and openly admitted I expected to be completely wrong, because that's how World Cups go. They let me down in the second half against the Netherlands.
However, the quotes you triumphantly cited have nothing to do with that. Brazil going out in the quarters is absolutely no proof whatsoever about their quality relative to the Brazil sides of the past. I said earlier in this thread that the best side often doesn't win, citing the Dutch in '74, Brazil in '82 and Argentina in '06. Tournament progress does not equate to absolute quality. You may think this Brazil side are the worst in 20 years, but you have proved nothing.
| quote: | | The team had not been playing badly on the pitch before the World Cup. they were demolishing their opposition and everyone was 100% sure that Brazil was going to be crowned in Germany. |
Sweet Jesus. Do you remember the teams they were playing against in that build up? They played:
The Under-20 side of Fluminese: Won 13-1
Lucerne State Team: 8-0
New Zealand: 4-0
Then finally the reserves played the first team, and the reserves won 3-0, prompting mass concern in the Brazilian media. No coincidence that the best Brazilian performance of 2006 was the game against Japan when they'd already qualified and put out the reserves. The Brazil team of 2006 was a bunch of out-of-form, ill-fitting superstars pressed into a ridiculous "magic quartet" 4-2-4 formation, and they refused to warm up for the tournament properly because Parreira wanted them to "peak in the final", hence the joke friendlies listed above.
Still think I'm wrong? Here's an article from April 2006 about Brazil's World Cup chances: http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...rt.worldcup2006. |
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| Ian |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
ing disaster the magic octopus chose Spain over Germany
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he knows his . |
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| woscar |
See? You're doing it again.
Who gives a if they are or aren't the worst squad in 20 years of Brazilian football? You are the one obsessed with making this little argument we're having about quality relative to past squads instead of focusing on what's important: This Brazilian squad wasn't any good to begin with and didn't stand a chance of winning anything. People going on and on about how this cup already belonged to Brazil are nothing more than mere fanboys living from the past who just didn't want to see that this Brazil was just another average team playing for the result instead of for the glory. This team managed to do well while they were ahead, and flopped miserably when they found themselves behind in the scoreboard. Teams like that cannot win championships.
We can go on and on about what WC squad was the worst and never reach an agreement. The point is that they were a poor team that was destined to fail from the start and it did. |
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| woscar |
| quote: | Originally posted by wotyzoid
You don't know what you're talking about. |
You weren't even alive in 1990 for s sake.
:stongue: |
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| LAdazeNYnights |
| quote: | Originally posted by malek
ing disaster the magic octopus chose Spain over Germany
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magic octopus is no longer magic. he's been guessing right up til now. tomorrow that ends. and then it's time for some sushi. |
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| ivofivo |
| quote: | Originally posted by woscar
See? You're doing it again.
Who gives a if they are or aren't the worst squad in 20 years of Brazilian football? You are the one obsessed with making this little argument we're having about quality relative to past squads instead of focusing on what's important: This Brazilian squad wasn't any good to begin with and didn't stand a chance of winning anything. People going on and on about how this cup already belonged to Brazil are nothing more than mere fanboys living from the past who just didn't want to see that this Brazil was just another average team playing for the result instead of for the glory. This team managed to do well while they were ahead, and flopped miserably when they found themselves behind in the scoreboard. Teams like that cannot win championships.
We can go on and on about what WC squad was the worst and never reach an agreement. The point is that they were a poor team that was destined to fail from the start and it did. |
No. There is a standard of high expectation for Brazil. There will always be one. |
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